what do you think?

billy · 02-04-2008, 01:04 PM

i found this surfing... it's about the m-38

The ammo is .309/.310, your bore is most likely .311 or larger. The ammo is "land riding" by design, not bore riding. It's seldom -50 degs F in the USA. The bore will shrink at these tempatures. A factor most shooters never grasp, but the Russian engineers did.
As you know when you clean your rifle, the patch looks as if you are cleaning your BBQ grill. This is due mainly to the gas blow-by of the small diameter bullet.

SwedeSteve · 02-04-2008, 01:23 PM

Makes perfect sense to me Billy! But if true, were they opting for inaccuracy for the better part of the year?

billy · 02-04-2008, 01:25 PM

i havent the foggiest steve.
thats why i threw it up there.

Geo M44 · 02-04-2008, 01:26 PM

I use both .308 and .311, but primarily .311 (both 180gr Speer SP and 174gr. Sierra HP BT match). I haven't noticed an appreciable difference in gas blow-by residue.

Both of my M44s and the 91/30 slugged out at .311.

I suppose for the first 2 rounds at -50F the bore might be a little tight, but at that temperature I would be firing a few rounds every couple of minutes and using the M38 as a hand warmer...

SwedeSteve · 02-04-2008, 01:27 PM

Well, if they were counting on the barrel contracting at -50, you would think this to be the case!

jmp8927 · 02-04-2008, 01:33 PM

That would explain the excessive muzzle flash as well.

billy · 02-04-2008, 01:41 PM

im finding odd stuff as i look for proof.

When the ambient temperature goes down, stainless steel has less fatigue resistance. That is to say, due to cold temperatures the stainless steel of the barrel can become weakened due to the flexing, expanding, and bending of the steel and burst. I suppose if you wanted to compare it to something becoming brittle from cold temperatures (like taffy) this would be an adequate comparison. I read that there have been instances of stainless barrels in hunting rifles bursting when the ambient temperature is around zero degrees or less and that some of these barrel were being used in Alaska. Apparently, this must be true as evidenced by Krieger's warning on their custom barrels.

Some custom barrel makers specifically caution against using their stainless barrels in cold weather (like Krieger).

Chrome-moly (i.e., type 4140 or 4150) barrels are very durable and hard and have maintained their fatigue resistance very well in cold temperatures. Stainless steel(i.e, type 416R), used for making rifle barrels, is apparently the problem causing stainless steel to become brittle. The 416R is apparently a more machinable alloy of stainless and is used by several of the custom barrel makers.

Therefore, certain types of stainless steel used in rifle barrels has problems in cold weather. You may wish to consider chrome-moly steel instead if you are considering cold weather hunting or shooting.

SwedeSteve · 02-04-2008, 01:44 PM

Good info Billy! Thanks...

Cyrano · 02-04-2008, 02:00 PM

Does anyone make a bullet for the 7.62x54R with an expanding base like the old Minie ball? That would surely solve the gas seal problem and might even get you a net increase in velocity and range.

billy · 02-04-2008, 02:46 PM

what would uncle moose say?

gandog56 · 02-04-2008, 02:50 PM

I've always used .311" bullets. It never even occurred to me to try .308" ones.

Of course I also got a spam can of 780 rounds of Czech Silvertip for 100 bucks that I haven't even opened yet.

SwedeSteve · 02-04-2008, 05:42 PM

Well, we know that Russian Mosins usually run on the large size when considering groove diameter. As large as .314 in some cases. Maybe they were considering barrel contraction! My M39 slugged out to .310. Similar weather considerations, but no concern there. As far a muzzle flash I think it's due to shooting a cartridge designed for a 73cm long barrel being shot out of a 51.4cm barrel. The proof there would be to fire some surplus under lowlight conditions, then some reloads using more modern, faster burning powder, and compare. Maybe on video?

billy · 02-04-2008, 05:49 PM

this doesnt help but it looks cool.
well it helps as much as a neato pic can as far as cheering me up......

siberian average temp.

The climate here is continental subarctic, with the annual average temperature about 0 °C (32 °F)

SwedeSteve · 02-04-2008, 05:55 PM

COOL indeed!

Ricochet · 02-04-2008, 05:56 PM

No, they weren't expecting the bore to contract that much. But deliberately making the groove diameter considerably larger than the bullet diameter was a common and well established practice. It allowed for buildup of fouling, dirt, ice, frozen oil, and for wide dimensional variation in bullets produced under wartime conditions where QC sometimes suffered. The gas blowby actually produces a cleaning effect so that the fouling doesn't build up past a point. Some power is lost from the gas leakage, but it's made up for by reduced friction. Battle rifles were never meant to produce MOA accuracy, and never needed to. They're quite capable of producing accuracy deemed sufficient for their purpose, which is on the order of 5 MOA. The Russians weren't the only ones who practiced this "overboring." The English, Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Italians, Swedes, Japanese and others did it as well.

billy · 02-04-2008, 06:08 PM

YouTube - Mosin..." target="_blank">YouTube - Mosin...

texnmidwest · 02-04-2008, 06:19 PM

Muzzle flash, Muzzle flash, How I love thee Muzzle flash!!!

SwedeSteve · 02-04-2008, 07:45 PM

You should of seen the people haul @$$ the first time I shot my M44 at the range! LOL!! That would've been a great video. One guy next to me fell off his stool....

billy · 02-04-2008, 07:49 PM

yes it can be fun!
my .454casull raging bull comes in handy for that also.

texnmidwest · 02-04-2008, 07:50 PM

I have my M44 in the car just waiting to raise the roof! I can't wait to shoot! I have never wanted to shoot a firearm so bad since I bought my 1100LH 12g when I was 18!

02-04-2008, 01:04 PM	#1
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,980 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	what do you think? i found this surfing... it's about the m-38 The ammo is .309/.310, your bore is most likely .311 or larger. The ammo is "land riding" by design, not bore riding. It's seldom -50 degs F in the USA. The bore will shrink at these tempatures. A factor most shooters never grasp, but the Russian engineers did. As you know when you clean your rifle, the patch looks as if you are cleaning your BBQ grill. This is due mainly to the gas blow-by of the small diameter bullet. __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

02-04-2008, 01:23 PM	#2
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	Makes perfect sense to me Billy! But if true, were they opting for inaccuracy for the better part of the year? __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

02-04-2008, 01:25 PM	#3
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,980 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	i havent the foggiest steve. thats why i threw it up there. __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

02-04-2008, 01:27 PM	#5
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	Well, if they were counting on the barrel contracting at -50, you would think this to be the case! __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

02-04-2008, 01:33 PM	#6
jmp8927 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Walterboro, SC Posts: 1,136 Images: 15	That would explain the excessive muzzle flash as well. __________________ Doing the unexpected makes the unexpected the expected and thus the expected becomes the unexpected.

02-04-2008, 01:26 PM	#4
Geo M44 Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: The Desert Posts: 2,172	I use both .308 and .311, but primarily .311 (both 180gr Speer SP and 174gr. Sierra HP BT match). I haven't noticed an appreciable difference in gas blow-by residue. Both of my M44s and the 91/30 slugged out at .311. I suppose for the first 2 rounds at -50F the bore might be a little tight, but at that temperature I would be firing a few rounds every couple of minutes and using the M38 as a hand warmer...

02-04-2008, 01:41 PM	#7
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,980 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	im finding odd stuff as i look for proof. When the ambient temperature goes down, stainless steel has less fatigue resistance. That is to say, due to cold temperatures the stainless steel of the barrel can become weakened due to the flexing, expanding, and bending of the steel and burst. I suppose if you wanted to compare it to something becoming brittle from cold temperatures (like taffy) this would be an adequate comparison. I read that there have been instances of stainless barrels in hunting rifles bursting when the ambient temperature is around zero degrees or less and that some of these barrel were being used in Alaska. Apparently, this must be true as evidenced by Krieger's warning on their custom barrels. Some custom barrel makers specifically caution against using their stainless barrels in cold weather (like Krieger). Chrome-moly (i.e., type 4140 or 4150) barrels are very durable and hard and have maintained their fatigue resistance very well in cold temperatures. Stainless steel(i.e, type 416R), used for making rifle barrels, is apparently the problem causing stainless steel to become brittle. The 416R is apparently a more machinable alloy of stainless and is used by several of the custom barrel makers. Therefore, certain types of stainless steel used in rifle barrels has problems in cold weather. You may wish to consider chrome-moly steel instead if you are considering cold weather hunting or shooting. __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

02-04-2008, 01:44 PM	#8
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	Good info Billy! Thanks... __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

02-04-2008, 02:00 PM	#9
Cyrano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York Posts: 2,296	Does anyone make a bullet for the 7.62x54R with an expanding base like the old Minie ball? That would surely solve the gas seal problem and might even get you a net increase in velocity and range.

02-04-2008, 02:46 PM	#10
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,980 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	what would uncle moose say? __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

02-04-2008, 02:50 PM	#11
gandog56 Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Montgomery, IL. Posts: 4,195	I've always used .311" bullets. It never even occurred to me to try .308" ones. Of course I also got a spam can of 780 rounds of Czech Silvertip for 100 bucks that I haven't even opened yet. Last edited by gandog56; 02-04-2008 at 02:52 PM.

02-04-2008, 05:42 PM	#12
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	Well, we know that Russian Mosins usually run on the large size when considering groove diameter. As large as .314 in some cases. Maybe they were considering barrel contraction! My M39 slugged out to .310. Similar weather considerations, but no concern there. As far a muzzle flash I think it's due to shooting a cartridge designed for a 73cm long barrel being shot out of a 51.4cm barrel. The proof there would be to fire some surplus under lowlight conditions, then some reloads using more modern, faster burning powder, and compare. Maybe on video? __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

02-04-2008, 05:49 PM	#13
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,980 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	this doesnt help but it looks cool. well it helps as much as a neato pic can as far as cheering me up...... siberian average temp. The climate here is continental subarctic, with the annual average temperature about 0 °C (32 °F) __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH Last edited by billy; 02-04-2008 at 05:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

02-04-2008, 05:55 PM	#14
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	COOL indeed! __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

02-04-2008, 05:56 PM	#15
Ricochet Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 166	No, they weren't expecting the bore to contract that much. But deliberately making the groove diameter considerably larger than the bullet diameter was a common and well established practice. It allowed for buildup of fouling, dirt, ice, frozen oil, and for wide dimensional variation in bullets produced under wartime conditions where QC sometimes suffered. The gas blowby actually produces a cleaning effect so that the fouling doesn't build up past a point. Some power is lost from the gas leakage, but it's made up for by reduced friction. Battle rifles were never meant to produce MOA accuracy, and never needed to. They're quite capable of producing accuracy deemed sufficient for their purpose, which is on the order of 5 MOA. The Russians weren't the only ones who practiced this "overboring." The English, Germans, Austro-Hungarians, Italians, Swedes, Japanese and others did it as well. __________________ "A cheerful heart is good medicine."

02-04-2008, 06:19 PM	#17
texnmidwest Listen to yur Inner Hippo Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: South east Wisconsin Posts: 3,395	Muzzle flash, Muzzle flash, How I love thee Muzzle flash!!! __________________ "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (If all else fails play dead)

02-04-2008, 07:45 PM	#18
SwedeSteve Bullet Maintenance !! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The anchor point, Alaska Posts: 10,300 Images: 1	You should of seen the people haul @$$ the first time I shot my M44 at the range! LOL!! That would've been a great video. One guy next to me fell off his stool.... __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

02-04-2008, 07:49 PM	#19
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 11,980 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	yes it can be fun! my .454casull raging bull comes in handy for that also. __________________ just leave britney ALONE! she's going thru a hard time snivel sniff....WAH

02-04-2008, 07:50 PM	#20
texnmidwest Listen to yur Inner Hippo Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: South east Wisconsin Posts: 3,395	I have my M44 in the car just waiting to raise the roof! I can't wait to shoot! I have never wanted to shoot a firearm so bad since I bought my 1100LH 12g when I was 18! __________________ "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (If all else fails play dead)