Poor shooting with muzzleloader - Page 2

Smokin_Gun · 05-27-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hounddawg

Actually the balls I shoot are a .454, and they are tight, but not overly so. I can't tell you the exact caliber of the Ball-ets, because verniers and micrometers I have. Ball-ets I don't.

When iI say .440 patched balls ... those would be round ball not conical. Follow? I don't think you shoot a .454 patched ball. LoL!

Smokin_Gun · 05-27-2005, 03:03 PM

hounddog I got a little confused here. You have a Kentuckey .45 rifle correct? And you aren't shooting .440 patched balls as it calls for. You instead are shooting .454 balls or conicals made for a .44 caliber revolver. Do I have that right? Second question if all that info is correct, why?

hounddawg · 06-04-2005, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin_Gun

First off hounddawg you dont wanna be shootong jacketed bullets in a BP Gun.

Hornady Great Plains Bullets are not jacketed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin_Gun

When iI say .440 patched balls ... those would be round ball not conical. Follow? I don't think you shoot a .454 patched ball. LoL!

Error. Dyslexia. That should read ".445."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokin_Gun

hounddog I got a little confused here. You have a Kentuckey .45 rifle correct? And you aren't shooting .440 patched balls as it calls for. You instead are shooting .454 balls or conicals made for a .44 caliber revolver. Do I have that right? Second question if all that info is correct, why?

Nope, .445" balls with a .50 cal patch over 75 gr of 777. Why? Because these balls are what this rifle is supposed to shoot, and I like the 3-4 inch groups at 100 yds. The info on the rifle you can find here, and the info on the ball (USA 530-445 for the .45) is here. The rifle was made to fire a .445 ball with a diameter of 11.3 mm weighing in at 133 grs.

Now the patch. I use a .50 cal patch because I'm a little nutty and superstitious.

Lonegun1894 · 10-02-2005, 08:19 PM

You get better than i do at 100yds. If it works for you, and you're confident with it, go with it. I'm starting to think i may need to do something drastic with mine to make it shoot like that.

FROSTY · 10-04-2005, 09:27 PM

Houndog, Remember my friend, It is a muzzle loader your hunting with. Get in close and wack'em! I live in ohio and rarely been presented with shots over 70 yds. At that range, even a tiny pill from a 50 cal will literally turn itself inside out when it mushrooms as long as velocity is still relatively high...

Bountyhunter · 10-09-2005, 02:13 PM

Let me confuse the issue here a little bit.

First, that rifle is intended to shoot patched round ball. The 48" twist was an attempt in the late 70's to make the barrels either for RB or for the short minie balls of that period. It wasnt a real success, but several companies have kept their mid twist barrels.

Try this. Get rid of that 777. Get you a can of good quality FFFg black powder. Like Goex. Get you some blue and white pillow ticking for patches. You dont mention what you were using, but use the .015 pillow ticking. Wash it to get the sizing out of it, then either cut your patches out of it, or tear it into strips about an inch and a quarter wide and carry with. If you take the strips, load like this:

1. Put your measured amount of powder down your dry clean barrel. Take your ramrod with the largest flat ended jag that will fit down your barrel and compress your powder as hard as you can. Put your rifle between your knees with the barrel facing out away from your face--put the ramrod down the barrel and use both hands to put as much weight as possible on the powder charge. Then take the ramrod out, and lay the strip of pillow ticking across the muzzle, lay a round ball in the middle of it, over the muzzle, push it down with your thumb, and then set with a short starter. Use a sharp knife to cut off the ticking that extends above the end of the barrel. Then use your ramrod again to push the ball down on the powder as hard as you can. Drop the ramrod down the barrel, and if it doesnt whang and bounce off the ball, then seat it some more.

A lot of research has been done, and just the mere process of compressing your powder makes as much as 150 fps difference in velocity, and it reduces fouling and increases accuracy. Unless you have a dud barrel, I have seen shooters do 3" consistently at rendezvous at 100.

My .53 will shoot all day 2-1/2" groups. I have killed a lot of deer with it and they go down the same as being shot with any other rifle. I never had a .50 but I started with a .45 about 35 years ago. You go put a good load of good powder in that rifle and that little round ball is gonna sing right outta there. 1500 fps or so. The .45-70's were loaded first with 70 gr and when the weenies started complaining, other loads were made with reduced powder charges down to about 55 gr. That was the light carbine load. The point is, that at 55-70 gr whatever your rifle likes, and there will be a sweet spot in there. just because you use so many grains, doesnt mean that your rifle barrel likes that. Work up and down and you will find that somewhere there is a point that the rifle likes that load better than others. I put some posts in a couple muzzleloader sites, and I'll come back later with what they say that they are using in their rifles. There must be some other fellows using the same type of rifle.

The bottom line is, that with a bullet that is that long, with that much bearing surface, you would need a twist of something like 1:20 to stabilize it. I will post again when some of the guys come back on the other forum. Meanwhile get you some Goex FFFg and try compressing it like I mentioned and report back on what happens to your accuracy. Work up to the safe upper limit and see what happens to your group size. You can safely compress that powder to 200#. Cartridge shooters do it all the time. You are going to find that your rifle may be shooting high because of the increased velocity. Wouldnt that be something.......... :jaw:

B

Bountyhunter · 10-10-2005, 04:06 PM

Ok, I did a post over on TMMH and several guys responded who shoot this rifle, both percussion and flinter. They all use patched round .445 ball and FFFg black powder. They think that they are finding a sweet spot between 60 and 70 grains well compressed. That is if you can live with a sweet spot that will cut cloverleafs at 50 yards.

Hope that helps ya.

B

hounddawg · 10-28-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonegun1894

You get better than i do at 100yds. If it works for you, and you're confident with it, go with it. I'm starting to think i may need to do something drastic with mine to make it shoot like that.

Perhaps it has something to do with the rifle as well. IMHO, the rifles made by Davide Pedersoli are really hard to beat. A little more expensive, but not by all that much.

Bountyhunter, I think I'll stick to shooting 777. It fouls less, stinks less, and the way I see it, if it ain't broke - don't fix it. Besides that, no gunshop in the area sells BP because of all kinds of Gvt audits. I can order it off the net, but it is too much of a schlepp to buy now, shoot next week.

The patches I use are the .010 .50's that are lubed with Borebutter. With the slightly larger patch it makes it easier to get a good gas seal. At 60yds I hit an apple 5 times out of 5, and in the woods around here, I expect to fire at no more than 40yds at the outside. I admit that I was a little over-enthusiastic with the 75gr powder load. I have since come down to just a hair under 60gr and I have noticed a slight improvement in accuracy.

A little tip I was given by an old-timer who has hunted with muzzleloaders for over 60 years:

He says that when you prepare to go hunting the night before, you get your stuff together and put your possibes bag and rifle in the barn or in your car. That way the stuff especially the rifle will be nice and cold in the morning. Before you load, pop off 2 or three caps to make sure that the nipple is not clogged. When you load her up, there will be no condensation from the warm rifle suddenly hit by cold air, and hence less chance of the powder becoming contaminated and causing mis- or hangfires.

When in the field, keep your hands off the barrel and action as much as possible so that your body heat does not cause condensation.

To be honest, I would not have thought of this had I not the good fortune to meet Mr. Odle, who is a fount of firearm knowledge, but a man sparing with words.

05-27-2005, 03:03 PM	#22
Smokin_Gun Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, So. California Posts: 71	hounddog I got a little confused here. You have a Kentuckey .45 rifle correct? And you aren't shooting .440 patched balls as it calls for. You instead are shooting .454 balls or conicals made for a .44 caliber revolver. Do I have that right? Second question if all that info is correct, why? __________________ :right: Nothin' like smokin' Black powder!

10-02-2005, 08:19 PM	#24
Lonegun1894 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 206	You get better than i do at 100yds. If it works for you, and you're confident with it, go with it. I'm starting to think i may need to do something drastic with mine to make it shoot like that.

10-04-2005, 09:27 PM	#25
FROSTY Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 39	Houndog, Remember my friend, It is a muzzle loader your hunting with. Get in close and wack'em! I live in ohio and rarely been presented with shots over 70 yds. At that range, even a tiny pill from a 50 cal will literally turn itself inside out when it mushrooms as long as velocity is still relatively high...

10-09-2005, 02:13 PM	#26
Bountyhunter Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Mexico Territory Posts: 103	Let me confuse the issue here a little bit. First, that rifle is intended to shoot patched round ball. The 48" twist was an attempt in the late 70's to make the barrels either for RB or for the short minie balls of that period. It wasnt a real success, but several companies have kept their mid twist barrels. Try this. Get rid of that 777. Get you a can of good quality FFFg black powder. Like Goex. Get you some blue and white pillow ticking for patches. You dont mention what you were using, but use the .015 pillow ticking. Wash it to get the sizing out of it, then either cut your patches out of it, or tear it into strips about an inch and a quarter wide and carry with. If you take the strips, load like this: 1. Put your measured amount of powder down your dry clean barrel. Take your ramrod with the largest flat ended jag that will fit down your barrel and compress your powder as hard as you can. Put your rifle between your knees with the barrel facing out away from your face--put the ramrod down the barrel and use both hands to put as much weight as possible on the powder charge. Then take the ramrod out, and lay the strip of pillow ticking across the muzzle, lay a round ball in the middle of it, over the muzzle, push it down with your thumb, and then set with a short starter. Use a sharp knife to cut off the ticking that extends above the end of the barrel. Then use your ramrod again to push the ball down on the powder as hard as you can. Drop the ramrod down the barrel, and if it doesnt whang and bounce off the ball, then seat it some more. A lot of research has been done, and just the mere process of compressing your powder makes as much as 150 fps difference in velocity, and it reduces fouling and increases accuracy. Unless you have a dud barrel, I have seen shooters do 3" consistently at rendezvous at 100. My .53 will shoot all day 2-1/2" groups. I have killed a lot of deer with it and they go down the same as being shot with any other rifle. I never had a .50 but I started with a .45 about 35 years ago. You go put a good load of good powder in that rifle and that little round ball is gonna sing right outta there. 1500 fps or so. The .45-70's were loaded first with 70 gr and when the weenies started complaining, other loads were made with reduced powder charges down to about 55 gr. That was the light carbine load. The point is, that at 55-70 gr whatever your rifle likes, and there will be a sweet spot in there. just because you use so many grains, doesnt mean that your rifle barrel likes that. Work up and down and you will find that somewhere there is a point that the rifle likes that load better than others. I put some posts in a couple muzzleloader sites, and I'll come back later with what they say that they are using in their rifles. There must be some other fellows using the same type of rifle. The bottom line is, that with a bullet that is that long, with that much bearing surface, you would need a twist of something like 1:20 to stabilize it. I will post again when some of the guys come back on the other forum. Meanwhile get you some Goex FFFg and try compressing it like I mentioned and report back on what happens to your accuracy. Work up to the safe upper limit and see what happens to your group size. You can safely compress that powder to 200#. Cartridge shooters do it all the time. You are going to find that your rifle may be shooting high because of the increased velocity. Wouldnt that be something.......... :jaw: B

10-10-2005, 04:06 PM	#27
Bountyhunter Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Mexico Territory Posts: 103	Ok, I did a post over on TMMH and several guys responded who shoot this rifle, both percussion and flinter. They all use patched round .445 ball and FFFg black powder. They think that they are finding a sweet spot between 60 and 70 grains well compressed. That is if you can live with a sweet spot that will cut cloverleafs at 50 yards. Hope that helps ya. B