Poor shooting with muzzleloader

[hounddawg]

First off, Hi all and all that.

I have recently acquired a .45 caliber Kentucky rifle made by Pedersoli. This rifle has a 35 1/16 inch barrel with a 1:47 twist.

The problem I seem to be encountering is that over 100yds the grouping of the shots are rather loose (about 5-7 inches). I have been loading up with 75gr of Hodgson's Triple Seven with a Hornady Great Plains 285gr hollow point projectiles (no wad ).

I would like to use this rifle to hunt next season, but if I can't put the bullet where I aim, the whole excercise is rather pointless. After all, first the animal must be hunted. Then the animal must be shot. Not the other way about.

Any advice appreciated.

[jerry]

Your gun is doing fine. Your blessed to get the 5~7 " groups your getting. Try a patched ball ans keep your hunting ranges to 50 yards, max 75 yards. hits only in the boiler room & get ready to track. Hope for good blood trail. The rate of twist you have is a comprimise. Try playing with powder cgarges as well. The following from Dixie Gun Works.

How does the barrel rifling affect the performance of the muzzleloader?

The method of rifling the barrel will have a profound impact on the accuracy of the muzzleloader. The rate of twist of the rifling will determine the proper type of projectile. For slow twist barrels (1 turn in 56 to 72 inches) use a patched round ball. For fast twist barrels (1 turn in 16 to 28 inches) use a conical bullet. Medium twist barrels are designed to shoot both patched round balls and conical bullets. Round balls may be used in a muzzleloader with a fast twist with good results. The key is to reduce the powder charge so the ball does not travel through the barrel so fast that it strips the rifling and does not take the twist or rotation. A discussion of other factors in barrel rifling such as different methods (cut, broach, button, etc.), number, width and depth of grooves, while important, is beyond the scope of this discussion.

[Doglips]

1:47 twist sounds too slow for the bullet/sabot set up I belive....I think they need a 1:20 twist....but could be wrong....try the patch/ball and you might want to try CVA's (think thats who makes it) BALLET its a cross between a ball and sabot...only all lead...looks like a pellet gun pellet. also might want to see if more/less poweder helps...never know 60 grains might group better/worse.

Let us know what happens...and what works.

[hounddawg]

Originally Posted by jerry

Your gun is doing fine. Your blessed to get the 5~7 "

!!!!! Now what about these stories folks around here have been dishing up for me. I am a new Immigrant to the US (TN to be exact) and I've been told about this man called Daniel Boone who could hit the head of a man at 200yds with a flintlock Kentucky rifle! Have I been led down the primrose path?

Anyhow, I will most certainly try the patched-ball approach, but wouldn't a .45 ball be a little on the light side for a Whitetail deer? Jerry, I assume by "hits only in the boiler room", you mean for me to shoot for the heart-lung cavity? and then track.

I might have to rethink hunting with this rifle, and use my K31 Schmidt-Rubin (7.5 Swiss) instead.

Doglips, you say ballet? I have never heard of such a thing, but I shall most certainly obtain some and evaluate the performance with different secondary charges.

Gentlemen, I thank you. I was afraid that my poor shooting was prediction of imminent old age and infirmity.

[ScottD]

Hounddwag they are both right on that load. That gun's history was way before the sabot and hence they were using patch and ball back then.

And about ol' Daniel Boone, he's become a legend in American history and as such his tales have been stretched a bit. While a patched round ball will shoot 200yds. I can't even imagine what the trajectory would be, but you can bet it would be a rainbow. Keep you're hunting distances within a 100yds. and you'll do just fine.

And Welcome and keep you're powder dry.

[jerry]

Yes Sir, the .45 I would consider minimum for deer, but can be done with good hunting skills. Yes, boiler room is the vitals, heart & lungs, both prefered. Poor hits are no substitute for any gun. The lighter muzzleloaders are not reputable bone penetrators, even my beloved .50 TC Hawken.

Oh,
& Dan Boone, Well, we seldom make 'em like that anymore.

P.S. That K31 would do nicely. On my list for my next gun :right:

[Doglips]

could not find the brand name balle-ts....but Hornadays web site has their verson...basicly its a soft lead round nose bullet....no patch...but no sabot either...im sure 10 min after posting this Ill find the maker of the ballet....these are havyer than a ball...lighter than a bullet/sabot combo...pretty cheap so worth giveing a try.

Conical bullets
The ideal choice for any hunter who wants to use a longer-barreled, slower twist firearm. Hornady's PA Conical bullets deliver greater accuracy and more knock-down power. Our PA bullets are pre-lubed with special knurled grooves on the bearing surface to hold the lubricant on the bullet — no need for a patch or sabot. Packaged 50 per box.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/

[Doglips]

Found it...thought Id lost my mind or miss labled a product this is the discription and link to a web site that sells them...but Im sure many people do...just first place I pulled up that had what I was talking about.

Buffalo’s new Ball-Et is half ball, half conical bullet. This projectile offers more energy than a round ball, easier to load than a sabot and higher velocity than a conical. All this, combined with very mild recoil. Exceptional accuracy in both fast and slow twist barrels. The Ball-ET requires no patch because it is prelubed with an all natural lubricant.

BUFFALO BALL-ETS
This extraordinary projectile combines all of the advantages of a conical bullet with the ease of loading a round ball, except no patch is needed!. The BALL-ET is a half ball and half bullet, pre-lubricated and ready to use right out of the box. It has more energy than a round ball, easier to load than a sabot and has a higher velocity than a conical. Exceptional accuracy can be obtained in both fast and slow twist barrels. All this, combined with a very light recoil. The BALL-ET is ideal for target shooting, plinking and hunting deer size animals. Packaged 50 to a box. U.S. Patent #5,443,010.


http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloadi...alo.htm#ballet

[Shaun]

1:47 to me sounds like a patched ball also you can try reducing your load sometimes that might be the case that you are overloading the charge. IN my 45 carbine we use about 50 grains of FFFg

[hounddawg]

Doglips....

Thank you. I followed your link and found the ball-ets weighing in at 200gr. I shall of course have to lurk in the bushes to pounce on the UPS-man, like I always do. I wear out the carpet waiting for new toys to arrive.

For "plinking" I have been using 200gr lead .45 semi-wadcutter bullets that was actually intended for reloading .45 ACP, and the reasoning was purely economy. I picked up 500 of them for $ 20. While they do not perform as well as the 285gr Hornady, they also do not cost $ 9 for a box of 20:uzi:

Shaun...

I have been using Hodgson's 777 FFG in my rifle. My logic here was that with a barrel a tiny fraction over a yard in length I would get better performance with a slightly slower-burning charge. Am I correct? I will, however, experiment with lower charges. This could only mean more bangs to the buck, in which case I'm a convert

Another bee has been blowing around in my bonnet: Would the idea to mount a Creedmore peep-sight on the tang be feasable? My fear is that it may weaken the stock where it is quite thin already. I saw a Jager rifle in the Pedersoli catalog with such a sight, and that is how I came upon the idea.

To illustrate my idea, I shall now attempt to attach an image. If you do not see it, it would mean that I could not puzzle out how this contraption works.





Gentlemen, I thank you, and while I may not be the proverbial fount of knowledge, I hope to repay the favour one of these days with what I do know

htt

[Shaun]

Better yet look at the Marbles Buckhorn sight you can get one that is almost a peep and just replaces the factory rear sight.

[hounddawg]

I went to the range this morning and tried patched ball at 100yd with 55gr (777) and the result was a 5 3/4 inch group.

The Hornady Great Plains 325gr hollowbase bullet with the same load (55gr) produced a nicely surprising 2 1/2 inch group. I suspect that the hollow base of the bullet has a lot to do with the difference. At around $9 /20 I'm not going to be putting many of these into a claybank behind a paper target

The reduced load has made the recoil of the rifle much more manageable. I am still awaiting my Ball-ets from Thunder-Ridge, but will post the results of my experimentation as soon as they arrive.

Gentemen, thank you again for the advice. Today I was really happy with my performance :nod:

[hounddawg]

I went out to the range yesterday to shoot some patched ball, and my second group of 5 shots at 70 yds had 4 balls cutting each other, with one about 4 in adrift. I packed up and went home because there is no way in hell I'm going to do better than that.

[hounddawg]

I have always found that the fixed sights on my Pedersoli were a bit of a pain. I manufactured a tang-mounted peep sight that is adjustable for elevation and took it to the range this morning to try her out. I outdid myself! I am managing 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 meters witout any great effort. It must be the new sight-radius- 890mm opposed to about 700mm.

I consider ths a really good deal. About $ 5.00 in materials and some elbow-grease.

[Smokin_Gun]

Originally Posted by Doglips

Found it...thought Id lost my mind or miss labled a product this is the discription and link to a web site that sells them...but Im sure many people do...just first place I pulled up that had what I was talking about.

Buffalo’s new Ball-Et is half ball, half conical bullet. This projectile offers more energy than a round ball, easier to load than a sabot and higher velocity than a conical. All this, combined with very mild recoil. Exceptional accuracy in both fast and slow twist barrels. The Ball-ET requires no patch because it is prelubed with an all natural lubricant.

BUFFALO BALL-ETS
This extraordinary projectile combines all of the advantages of a conical bullet with the ease of loading a round ball, except no patch is needed!. The BALL-ET is a half ball and half bullet, pre-lubricated and ready to use right out of the box. It has more energy than a round ball, easier to load than a sabot and has a higher velocity than a conical. Exceptional accuracy can be obtained in both fast and slow twist barrels. All this, combined with a very light recoil. The BALL-ET is ideal for target shooting, plinking and hunting deer size animals. Packaged 50 to a box. U.S. Patent #5,443,010.


http://www.thunder-ridge-muzzleloadi...alo.htm#ballet

Dang it! No pics no dimensions. Doglips is that Conical .45 a .451 or .454 or what size?
Thank you ... :right:

[hounddawg]

You can find a picture here: http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/sto...~BALL+-+ET.htm

As far as I know they come in .36, .45, .50 and .54. There may be more calibers, but I still prefer my pacthed-ball for my 1 in 47 barrel. They are worth a try though, because they are not really expensive, and they perform well. Its just the wait for shipping that kills me.

[Smokin_Gun]

So they aren't a .440 like your .45 balls are right? So they must have a dimension someplace. Got a set of calipers? .45 Long colt uses a .454" Round Ball - a .452 Semi Wadcutter or a .451 Half jacket hollow point. It's gotta be in that rage some place. For my .44 Revolvers I mold .452 Balls and they leave a thin press ring when I load them. So these must be a pretty tight fit rammin' them down your barrel a few feet.

[hounddawg]

Originally Posted by Smokin_Gun

So they aren't a .440 like your .45 balls are right? So they must have a dimension someplace. Got a set of calipers? .45 Long colt uses a .454" Round Ball - a .452 Semi Wadcutter or a .451 Half jacket hollow point. It's gotta be in that rage some place. For my .44 Revolvers I mold .452 Balls and they leave a thin press ring when I load them. So these must be a pretty tight fit rammin' them down your barrel a few feet.

Actually the balls I shoot are a .454, and they are tight, but not overly so. I can't tell you the exact caliber of the Ball-ets, because verniers and micrometers I have. Ball-ets I don't.

[Smokin_Gun]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

First off, Hi all and all that.

I have recently acquired a .45 caliber Kentucky rifle made by Pedersoli. This rifle has a 35 1/16 inch barrel with a 1:47 twist.

The problem I seem to be encountering is that over 100yds the grouping of the shots are rather loose (about 5-7 inches). I have been loading up with 75gr of Hodgson's Triple Seven with a Hornady Great Plains 285gr hollow point projectiles (no wad ).

I would like to use this rifle to hunt next season, but if I can't put the bullet where I aim, the whole excercise is rather pointless. After all, first the animal must be hunted. Then the animal must be shot. Not the other way about.

Any advice appreciated.

Try 50 to 55gr of Black Powder and adjust from there make sure patch ain't burnin and not tearing. burn spot too much powder tearing sharp lands ... lap it or jus keep shooin it it'll break in. 75 gr a anythin is too much in a .45 at the most O use 60 gr in a .58 and 55gr BP in a .50. I shoot competition metalicsilouette and Rondevous shoots. Got a Dixie Tennessee Poorboy .50 that I shoot cap tin covers at 50 ft. with. Same rifle I was bench restin makin clover leafs at 25 yds. a covey a qual landed at the 100 yd. burm and yup nailed one a 100 yds.

[Smokin_Gun]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

First off, Hi all and all that.

I have recently acquired a .45 caliber Kentucky rifle made by Pedersoli. This rifle has a 35 1/16 inch barrel with a 1:47 twist.

The problem I seem to be encountering is that over 100yds the grouping of the shots are rather loose (about 5-7 inches). I have been loading up with 75gr of Hodgson's Triple Seven with a Hornady Great Plains 285gr hollow point projectiles (no wad ).

I would like to use this rifle to hunt next season, but if I can't put the bullet where I aim, the whole excercise is rather pointless. After all, first the animal must be hunted. Then the animal must be shot. Not the other way about.

Any advice appreciated.

First off hounddawg you dont wanna be shootong jacketed bullets in a BP Gun. And second dawglipps is quite right. In a 1 in 47 twist rifle you really don't want to shoot anything but patched round ball, thats how Daniel Boone hit something at 200 yards at thats how I do it at 200 yds. You can try what is calles a Maxi ball a conical bullet wiyth two grease rings. Good closer cause it so heavy. All you need is 50-60gr of Black Powder and a patched ball. Zero your rifle on paper at 25 yds. once you know rifle from a bench rest shoots at least 3 in the same hole, move it out to 100 yds. should be same point of impact ith same powder charge at 100 as it was at 25yds.