Ladder, vernier, peep, Soule, tang and barrel sights

Cyrille · 04-20-2008, 01:48 PM

I have searched the internet, I have contacted by snail and e mail various "shooting" magazines and sight companies, I cannot get any information on how these sights are used, what is the method of use? can any one enlighten me as to how these sights are used. I have no problem with "scope" sights. But am in total ignorance as to the way these sights are used.

billy · 04-20-2008, 02:17 PM

a peep and a tang work on the same principle
peek through a itty bitty hole at the front post

a vernier is a tang sight

[edit] Aperture sights

Pictures taken under identical conditions through large (left) and small (right) diameter aperture sights, with camera focused on front sight.

Aperture sights, also known as peep sights, range from the ghost ring sight, whose thin ring blurs to near invisibility (hence ghost), to target aperture sights that use large disks with pinhole-sized apertures. In general, the thicker the ring, the more precise the sight, and the thinner the ring, the faster the sight.
The image to the right shows a shooter's eye view of the sight picture taken through large and small diameter apertures. The large diameter aperture provides a much brighter image of the target, and the ghosting of the rear ring is evident. The smaller aperture, while providing a much darker image of the target, provides a much greater depth of field (see pinhole camera for an explanation of this effect), yielding a much sharper image of the target.
The theory of operation behind the aperture sight is that the human eye will automatically center the front sight when looked through the rear aperture, thus ensuring accuracy.[citation needed]

[edit] Ghost rings

A ghost ring sight

For many shooters, the ghost ring sight is the fastest type of aperture sight. It is fairly accurate, easy to use, and obscures the target less than nearly all other non-optical sights. Because of this, ghost ring sights are commonly installed on combat shotguns and sub-machine guns (and to a much lesser extent, rifles). The ghost ring is a fairly recent innovation, and differs from traditional aperture sights in the extreme thinness of the rear ring, and the slightly thicker front sight. The thin ring minimizes the occlusion of the target, while the thicker front post makes it easy to find quickly.

[edit] Target aperture sights

A target rear sight with different front sight inserts: A) a ring with horizontal bars, which act as a level reference, B) a ring with a vertical post, C) a simple post, D) a transparent disk with a yellow tint. The gray dot represents the target.

Rear aperture of a BRNO target sight. Note large disk and small aperture, characteristic of a target sight, plus large adjusting knobs for elevation and windage.

Front globe of a BRNO target sight. Note knurled nut holding in the replaceable front sight insert.

A long range tang sight.

Target aperture sights are designed for maximum precision, and the rear sight is usually a large disk (up to 1 inch or 2.5 cm in diameter) with a small hole in the middle, and placed close to the shooter's eye. The front sight may be a simple bead or post, but is more often a globe type sight, which consists of a cylinder with a threaded cap, which allows a number of differently shaped front sights to be used. Most common are posts of varying widths and heights or rings of varying diameter — these can be chosen by the shooter for the best fit to the target being used. Tinted transparent plastic inserts may also be used, with a hole in the middle; these work the same way as an opaque ring, but provide a less obstructed view of the target. Even for the maximum precision, there should still be a significant area of white visible around the bullseye and between the front and rear sight ring (if a front ring is being used). Since the best key to determining center is the amount of light passing through the apertures, a narrow, dim ring of light can actually be more difficult to work with than a larger, brighter ring. The precise sizes are quite subjective, and depend on both shooter preference and ambient lighting, which is why target rifles come with easily replaceable front sight inserts, and adjustable rear apertures.
Rifles from the late 1800s often featured one of two types of aperture sight called a tang sight or a ladder sight. Since the black powder used in muzzleloaders and early cartridges was not capable of propelling a bullet at high velocity, these sights had very large ranges of vertical adjustments, often on the order of several degrees, allowing very long shots to be made accurately. The .45-70 cartridge, for example, was tested by the military for accuracy at ranges of up to 1500 yards, which required 3 1/3 degrees of elevation. Both ladder and tang sights folded down when not in use to reduce the chance of damage to the sights. Ladder sights were mounted on the barrel, and could be used as sights in both the folded and unfolded states. Tang sights were mounted behind the action of the rifle, and provided a very long sight radius, and had to be unfolded for use, though rifles with tang sights often had open sights as well for close range use. Tang sights often had vernier scales, allowing adjustment down to a single minute of arc over the full range of the sight.
Aperture sights on military rifles use a larger aperture with a thinner ring, and generally a simple post front sight. The extreme case of this is the ghost ring sight, a relatively recent innovation that may be the fastest type of iron sight to use, while still providing a degree of precision comparable to or better than most open sights. Ghost ring sights are commonly found on riot and combat shotguns and customized handguns, and they are also gaining ground as a backup sighting system on rifles.

[edit] Shotgun beads

Since shotgun beads are only used by the peripheral vision, generally a larger, brighter bead works best. Fiber optic sights are becoming popular for shotguns, as they greatly increase the brightness of the bead by collecting light and directing it to the shooter's eye. Since the "rear sight" in the case of a shotgun is the shooter's eye position, adjusting the "sights" on a shotgun consists primarily of adjusting the stock to fit the shooter as well as possible.
Bead sights are inferior in practical accuracy compared to rifle and ghost-ring sights, as they provide no rear sight to verify correct alignment with the front sight. While bead sights may be acceptable on sporting shotguns, they are best avoided for use on combat shotguns.
The primary advantage of bead sights is that they are less expensive than rifle and ghost-ring sights.

[edit] Iron sight enhancements

While iron sights are basically very simple, that simplicity also leads to a staggering variety of different implementations. In addition to the purely geometric considerations of the front blade and rear notch, there are some factors that need to be considered when choosing a set of iron sights for a particular purpose.

[edit] Glare reduction

Glare, particularly from the front sight, can be a significant problem with iron sights. The glare from the front sight can increase the apparent brightness of the light bar on one side of the sight, causing windage errors in aiming, or lower the apparent height of the front sight, causing elevation errors in aiming. Since the direction of the ambient light is rarely constant for a shooter, the resulting changing glare can significantly affect the point of aim.
The most common solution to the problem of glare is a matte finish on the sights. Serrating or bead blasting the sight is a common solution for brightly finished sights, such as blued steel or stainless steel. Matte finishes such as parkerizing or matte black paint can also help. "Smoking" a sight by holding a match or cigarette lighter under the sight to deposit a fine layer of soot is a common technique used by many shooters, and in fact special soot producing cigarette type lighters are sold for use by competition shooters. Even a thin layer of mud or dirt applied to the sight will help kill the glare, as long as the coating is thin and consistent enough not to change the shape of the sights.
Many target sights are designed with vertical or even undercut front sight blades, which reduces the angles at which light will produce glare off the sight--the downside of these sights is that they tend to snag on clothing, branches, and other materials, so they are only common on target guns. Sight hoods, which cover the front and/or rear sight with a small tube, serve both to reduce glare and reduce the chances of snagging an undercut sight. Hooded front sights are common on some types of rifles, particularly lever action rifles, but they are prohibited in some shooting disciplines such as some classes of handgun metallic silhouette shooting.

Cyrille · 04-20-2008, 07:33 PM

Thanks Billy, This helps a whole lot!

billy · 04-20-2008, 07:35 PM

glad to be of service to you sir.

Cyrille · 04-20-2008, 07:56 PM

Hay! y'u don't gotta sir me--- I ain't no knight!

billy · 04-20-2008, 07:57 PM

ha ha!

Cyrille · 04-26-2008, 02:04 PM

Ok I've decided to order a Soule Mid-range tang sight and globe front sight. The company that has impressed me the most is MontanaVintage Arms, everything I've read about them indicates that they are top-0-the-line, has of ya'll had any experance with their product? and if so what is your opinion?

04-20-2008, 01:48 PM	#1
Cyrille Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,850	Ladder, vernier, peep, Soule, tang and barrel sights I have searched the internet, I have contacted by snail and e mail various "shooting" magazines and sight companies, I cannot get any information on how these sights are used, what is the method of use? can any one enlighten me as to how these sights are used. I have no problem with "scope" sights. But am in total ignorance as to the way these sights are used.

04-20-2008, 02:17 PM	#2
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 12,106 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	a peep and a tang work on the same principle peek through a itty bitty hole at the front post a vernier is a tang sight [edit] Aperture sights Pictures taken under identical conditions through large (left) and small (right) diameter aperture sights, with camera focused on front sight. Aperture sights, also known as peep sights, range from the ghost ring sight, whose thin ring blurs to near invisibility (hence ghost), to target aperture sights that use large disks with pinhole-sized apertures. In general, the thicker the ring, the more precise the sight, and the thinner the ring, the faster the sight. The image to the right shows a shooter's eye view of the sight picture taken through large and small diameter apertures. The large diameter aperture provides a much brighter image of the target, and the ghosting of the rear ring is evident. The smaller aperture, while providing a much darker image of the target, provides a much greater depth of field (see pinhole camera for an explanation of this effect), yielding a much sharper image of the target. The theory of operation behind the aperture sight is that the human eye will automatically center the front sight when looked through the rear aperture, thus ensuring accuracy.[citation needed] [edit] Ghost rings A ghost ring sight For many shooters, the ghost ring sight is the fastest type of aperture sight. It is fairly accurate, easy to use, and obscures the target less than nearly all other non-optical sights. Because of this, ghost ring sights are commonly installed on combat shotguns and sub-machine guns (and to a much lesser extent, rifles). The ghost ring is a fairly recent innovation, and differs from traditional aperture sights in the extreme thinness of the rear ring, and the slightly thicker front sight. The thin ring minimizes the occlusion of the target, while the thicker front post makes it easy to find quickly. [edit] Target aperture sights A target rear sight with different front sight inserts: A) a ring with horizontal bars, which act as a level reference, B) a ring with a vertical post, C) a simple post, D) a transparent disk with a yellow tint. The gray dot represents the target. Rear aperture of a BRNO target sight. Note large disk and small aperture, characteristic of a target sight, plus large adjusting knobs for elevation and windage. Front globe of a BRNO target sight. Note knurled nut holding in the replaceable front sight insert. A long range tang sight. Target aperture sights are designed for maximum precision, and the rear sight is usually a large disk (up to 1 inch or 2.5 cm in diameter) with a small hole in the middle, and placed close to the shooter's eye. The front sight may be a simple bead or post, but is more often a globe type sight, which consists of a cylinder with a threaded cap, which allows a number of differently shaped front sights to be used. Most common are posts of varying widths and heights or rings of varying diameter — these can be chosen by the shooter for the best fit to the target being used. Tinted transparent plastic inserts may also be used, with a hole in the middle; these work the same way as an opaque ring, but provide a less obstructed view of the target. Even for the maximum precision, there should still be a significant area of white visible around the bullseye and between the front and rear sight ring (if a front ring is being used). Since the best key to determining center is the amount of light passing through the apertures, a narrow, dim ring of light can actually be more difficult to work with than a larger, brighter ring. The precise sizes are quite subjective, and depend on both shooter preference and ambient lighting, which is why target rifles come with easily replaceable front sight inserts, and adjustable rear apertures. Rifles from the late 1800s often featured one of two types of aperture sight called a tang sight or a ladder sight. Since the black powder used in muzzleloaders and early cartridges was not capable of propelling a bullet at high velocity, these sights had very large ranges of vertical adjustments, often on the order of several degrees, allowing very long shots to be made accurately. The .45-70 cartridge, for example, was tested by the military for accuracy at ranges of up to 1500 yards, which required 3 1/3 degrees of elevation. Both ladder and tang sights folded down when not in use to reduce the chance of damage to the sights. Ladder sights were mounted on the barrel, and could be used as sights in both the folded and unfolded states. Tang sights were mounted behind the action of the rifle, and provided a very long sight radius, and had to be unfolded for use, though rifles with tang sights often had open sights as well for close range use. Tang sights often had vernier scales, allowing adjustment down to a single minute of arc over the full range of the sight. Aperture sights on military rifles use a larger aperture with a thinner ring, and generally a simple post front sight. The extreme case of this is the ghost ring sight, a relatively recent innovation that may be the fastest type of iron sight to use, while still providing a degree of precision comparable to or better than most open sights. Ghost ring sights are commonly found on riot and combat shotguns and customized handguns, and they are also gaining ground as a backup sighting system on rifles. [edit] Shotgun beads Since shotgun beads are only used by the peripheral vision, generally a larger, brighter bead works best. Fiber optic sights are becoming popular for shotguns, as they greatly increase the brightness of the bead by collecting light and directing it to the shooter's eye. Since the "rear sight" in the case of a shotgun is the shooter's eye position, adjusting the "sights" on a shotgun consists primarily of adjusting the stock to fit the shooter as well as possible. Bead sights are inferior in practical accuracy compared to rifle and ghost-ring sights, as they provide no rear sight to verify correct alignment with the front sight. While bead sights may be acceptable on sporting shotguns, they are best avoided for use on combat shotguns. The primary advantage of bead sights is that they are less expensive than rifle and ghost-ring sights. [edit] Iron sight enhancements While iron sights are basically very simple, that simplicity also leads to a staggering variety of different implementations. In addition to the purely geometric considerations of the front blade and rear notch, there are some factors that need to be considered when choosing a set of iron sights for a particular purpose. [edit] Glare reduction Glare, particularly from the front sight, can be a significant problem with iron sights. The glare from the front sight can increase the apparent brightness of the light bar on one side of the sight, causing windage errors in aiming, or lower the apparent height of the front sight, causing elevation errors in aiming. Since the direction of the ambient light is rarely constant for a shooter, the resulting changing glare can significantly affect the point of aim. The most common solution to the problem of glare is a matte finish on the sights. Serrating or bead blasting the sight is a common solution for brightly finished sights, such as blued steel or stainless steel. Matte finishes such as parkerizing or matte black paint can also help. "Smoking" a sight by holding a match or cigarette lighter under the sight to deposit a fine layer of soot is a common technique used by many shooters, and in fact special soot producing cigarette type lighters are sold for use by competition shooters. Even a thin layer of mud or dirt applied to the sight will help kill the glare, as long as the coating is thin and consistent enough not to change the shape of the sights. Many target sights are designed with vertical or even undercut front sight blades, which reduces the angles at which light will produce glare off the sight--the downside of these sights is that they tend to snag on clothing, branches, and other materials, so they are only common on target guns. Sight hoods, which cover the front and/or rear sight with a small tube, serve both to reduce glare and reduce the chances of snagging an undercut sight. Hooded front sights are common on some types of rifles, particularly lever action rifles, but they are prohibited in some shooting disciplines such as some classes of handgun metallic silhouette shooting. __________________ Last edited by billy; 04-20-2008 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

04-20-2008, 07:35 PM	#4
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 12,106 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	glad to be of service to you sir. __________________

04-20-2008, 07:57 PM	#6
billy spiritual counselor Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: a secret lab on the shores of lake titicaca Posts: 12,106 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 146	ha ha! __________________

04-20-2008, 07:33 PM	#3
Cyrille Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,850	Thanks Billy, This helps a whole lot!

04-20-2008, 07:56 PM	#5
Cyrille Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,850	Hay! y'u don't gotta sir me--- I ain't no knight!

04-26-2008, 02:04 PM	#7
Cyrille Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 1,850	Ok I've decided to order a Soule Mid-range tang sight and globe front sight. The company that has impressed me the most is MontanaVintage Arms, everything I've read about them indicates that they are top-0-the-line, has of ya'll had any experance with their product? and if so what is your opinion?