How Often You See One of These?

spicybeefjerky · 09-08-2006, 06:51 PM

GunBroker.com Item 55225587 [Ends Sep-10-06 10

37 PM] JOHNSON AUTOMATICS MODEL 1941 MILITARY RIFLE C&R !

Johnson M1941!! Always wanted one but more of a dream than a possibility

Pred · 09-09-2006, 06:33 AM

Hmmm... Don't see many of those.

DANA · 09-09-2006, 10:32 AM

Got mine in 1953 for $67.50

DANA

Trey45 · 09-09-2006, 10:50 AM

I've only seen one of these in my entire life, it was at my gunclub last month! The guy said the rifle was fun to shoot when it functioned correctly, it seems there's a plethora of problems with these 1941s. Magazine issues, feeding issues, stovepiping, bolt jams etc etc. There's a reason the Military adopted the M1 instead.Yup it has a coolness factor, it has the same appeal any rare/unusual gun has, but to spend that amount of money, why not get something that functions well and shoots well AND has a coolness factor? I'm sure my opinion of this rifle is formed in part by the conversation I had with a 1941 owner. What I've read online since then have shown these issues seem to run rampant thru the entire 1941 inventory!

Gyrene · 09-10-2006, 12:59 AM

Trey45 - Hmmm, My M1941 Johnson shoots very well. The only malfunction, is that occasionally it will double, which I have not had happen to me, but others firing it had it double about 5 different times, while I was present.

Many semi-auto rifles have what some call a "Sweet Spot", where the trigger will function with only a slight movement of the trigger (from the recoil), and this is the suspected gremlin that jumps up after the first round fires.

There is a "Hard Corps" of people that have absolutely no use (they hate it and really don't know anything about it) for the M1941 Johnson, and will relate many kinds of horror stories about them. Maybe more horror stories than there were M1941 Rifles built. I have seen and fired as many as 75 Johnson M1941 Rifles, and I have not seen more than just a few malfunctions (maybe as many as 10, counting the 5 times my own Johnson M1941 has doubled)!

There were only about 20,000 of them built (maybe less, because the records are not too comprehensive (at least vague)), which were built under contract to the Dutch Government. Not all were delivered by the time the Dutch Government had moved to England, and some of the remaining deliveries were made to the Dutch in Indonesia, for use against the Japanese. Some of these ended up in the hands of the Chinese Communists, and were used against USGIs in Korea.

The M1941 Johnson rifle was designed and built for far less money than was used for the development of the M1 Garand (which was its competition). In fact it could be built in any well equipped machine shop (one of its features), thus it required no single location (such as Springfield Armory) which was the M1 Garands' biggest handicap, at first.

The M1941 Johnson SAR was "tested", a few times against the M1 Garand, by the people who were responsible for building and delivering the M1 Garand, and each time it was considered nearly equal to the M1 Garand, and so it was dropped as a consideration. Keep in mind each of these "tests" were performed by a literally unchanged M1941 Johnson, against a constantly changing M1 Garand (such as the development to remove the "Gas Trap" system and switch to the "gas port" system used on the M1 Garands we now know and love)! These costs were enormous for the M1 Garand development, to keep it on par with the M1941 Johnson. The total development costs for the M1941 Johnson were less than the cost for changing the M1 Garand from a "Gas Trap" to the current "gas port" system.

Another Johnson development was the Johnson Light Machinegun. It was issued to some of the Marines along with some M1941 Johnson SARs in 1942. Remember it was mid to late 1943 before the Marines were receiving enough M1 Garands to make a difference. Some Marines had traded their war trophies on Guadalcanal to soldiers for their M1 Garands, but that began happening when the US Army was relieving the 1st Marine Division on Guadalcanal, in 1942, for the USMC to prepare for the next assault on the Japanese.

The Marines did not want to give up the M1941 Johnson, or the Johnson Light Machinegun. The high brass did not want the US Army logistics system cluttered up with rifle parts that were not useable on the M1 Garand, (and it wasn't invented here {NIH}, Springfield Armory, Springfield, MA} THANK YOU VERY MUCH! The Johnson Light Machinegun was also used by the First Special Service Forces in Italy against the Germans, and the First Special Service Forces did not want to give them up. This seems to be a common thought by those that used the JSAR (M1941 Johnson Semi-Auto Rifle), and the Johnson LMG, in combat.

The Johnson Light Machinegun was a 12 1/2 pound machine gun with a 25 round magazine, that Melvin Maynard Johnson demonstrated many times firing it with one hand, held up in front of him. The Johnson Light Machingun fired the .30-06 cartridge, the same as the M1 Garand, the .30 Cal Browning Machineguns, and the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle). It would have been competition for the BAR, had it been selected as a standard issue weapon. As compared to the BAR, the Johnson LMG weighed 12 1/2 pounds, the BAR weighed 26 pounds; the Johnson LMG had a 25 round magazine, the BAR had a 20 round magazine; the Johnson LMG could be held and fired with one hand, the BAR always required two hands; the cyclic rate of fire for the Johnson LMG was 600 rounds per minute (which could be slowed down), the BAR cyclic rate was single shot and (correct me if I'm wrong) about 350 or 500 (selectable), and many other comparisons where the Johnson LMG was superior to the BAR. I used the BAR and I liked it very much! I do regret never getting the opportunity to use the Johnson LMG.

The Johnson LMG was also built with the same receiver as the M1941 Johnson SAR; with the bolt and trigger group differing to allow for selectable semi-auto or full auto firing.

The Johnson Semi-Automatic Rifle M1941 could change calibers easily, by simply removing the barrel (I've done a thousand times, it takes about 15 to 20 seconds), and installing another barrel. It had barrels with various calibers built for it, and it could fire 7.7 Japanese, 7 x 57mm Mauser, 8 x 57mm Mauser, and any other that are near the same size cartridges. It could be loaded with a standard 5 round stripper clip, or load a single cartridge at a time, into a 10 round magazine (topping it up using a 5 round stripper clip, or a single round with the bolt open or closed was a normal activity).

If you see a Johnson SAR at the range, ask the owner about getting a demonstration, I do a demo quite frequently, and offer shooters a chance to shoot a real rarity. They are always amazed at the light recoil as compared to the M1 Garand, especially since they both shoot the same ammo. On that note, the M1941 Johnson can use M1 Ball or M2 Ball, and the M1 Garand cannot shoot the M1 Ball without endangering the M1 Garand and the shooter. M2 Ball was designed for the M1 Garand, but can be fired in the Browning Machine Guns, the BAR, the 1903/1903A1-A3-A4, and the M1917.

M1 Ball was the .30-06 cartridge designed for the M1903 Springfield. The .30 Cal Browning Machine Gun and the BAR were designed to use M1 Ball, which gave the machine guns a range of 2,500 yards, and the volley fire capability of the M1903 Springfields a range of 2,000 yards. M2 Ball cuts that range down to between 2,000 to 2,200 yards for the machine guns and 1,500 to 1,800 yards for the M1903 Springfield in volley fire mode.

Don't think for a minute that I do not have a love for the M1 Garand, and the BAR, they are both excellent for their intended applications. However, I think that the people who prevented the M1941 Johnson SAR and the Johnson LMG, from being alternate issue weapons, did the US a disservice.

Had the M1941 Johnson been declared an alternate issue, and been produced, the US Marine Corps would have had a semi-auto rifle at least a year before they began receiving the M1 Garand, and the Johnson LMG would have been much more manageable in the Pacific Theater than the BAR. The Johnson products could have been manufactured in many locations throughout the US, whereas the M1 Garand and the BAR were manufactured in the heart of the gun manufacturing industry in Massachussetts, and Connecticut, leaving the US open to a possible single episode of sabotage, which could have interfered with the war effort!

`

FutureMarine · 09-10-2006, 01:33 PM

i have handled one only at sacramento and Reno gunshows. id like one, just too expensive

09-08-2006, 06:51 PM	#1
spicybeefjerky Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 155	How Often You See One of These? GunBroker.com Item 55225587 [Ends Sep-10-06 1037 PM] JOHNSON AUTOMATICS MODEL 1941 MILITARY RIFLE C&R ! Johnson M1941!! Always wanted one but more of a dream than a possibility

09-09-2006, 10:50 AM	#4
Trey45 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 244 Images: 3	I've only seen one of these in my entire life, it was at my gunclub last month! The guy said the rifle was fun to shoot when it functioned correctly, it seems there's a plethora of problems with these 1941s. Magazine issues, feeding issues, stovepiping, bolt jams etc etc. There's a reason the Military adopted the M1 instead.Yup it has a coolness factor, it has the same appeal any rare/unusual gun has, but to spend that amount of money, why not get something that functions well and shoots well AND has a coolness factor? I'm sure my opinion of this rifle is formed in part by the conversation I had with a 1941 owner. What I've read online since then have shown these issues seem to run rampant thru the entire 1941 inventory! __________________ http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y24...eadfingers.jpg

09-10-2006, 12:59 AM	#5
Gyrene Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: CA Posts: 886	Trey45 - Hmmm, My M1941 Johnson shoots very well. The only malfunction, is that occasionally it will double, which I have not had happen to me, but others firing it had it double about 5 different times, while I was present. Many semi-auto rifles have what some call a "Sweet Spot", where the trigger will function with only a slight movement of the trigger (from the recoil), and this is the suspected gremlin that jumps up after the first round fires. There is a "Hard Corps" of people that have absolutely no use (they hate it and really don't know anything about it) for the M1941 Johnson, and will relate many kinds of horror stories about them. Maybe more horror stories than there were M1941 Rifles built. I have seen and fired as many as 75 Johnson M1941 Rifles, and I have not seen more than just a few malfunctions (maybe as many as 10, counting the 5 times my own Johnson M1941 has doubled)! There were only about 20,000 of them built (maybe less, because the records are not too comprehensive (at least vague)), which were built under contract to the Dutch Government. Not all were delivered by the time the Dutch Government had moved to England, and some of the remaining deliveries were made to the Dutch in Indonesia, for use against the Japanese. Some of these ended up in the hands of the Chinese Communists, and were used against USGIs in Korea. The M1941 Johnson rifle was designed and built for far less money than was used for the development of the M1 Garand (which was its competition). In fact it could be built in any well equipped machine shop (one of its features), thus it required no single location (such as Springfield Armory) which was the M1 Garands' biggest handicap, at first. The M1941 Johnson SAR was "tested", a few times against the M1 Garand, by the people who were responsible for building and delivering the M1 Garand, and each time it was considered nearly equal to the M1 Garand, and so it was dropped as a consideration. Keep in mind each of these "tests" were performed by a literally unchanged M1941 Johnson, against a constantly changing M1 Garand (such as the development to remove the "Gas Trap" system and switch to the "gas port" system used on the M1 Garands we now know and love)! These costs were enormous for the M1 Garand development, to keep it on par with the M1941 Johnson. The total development costs for the M1941 Johnson were less than the cost for changing the M1 Garand from a "Gas Trap" to the current "gas port" system. Another Johnson development was the Johnson Light Machinegun. It was issued to some of the Marines along with some M1941 Johnson SARs in 1942. Remember it was mid to late 1943 before the Marines were receiving enough M1 Garands to make a difference. Some Marines had traded their war trophies on Guadalcanal to soldiers for their M1 Garands, but that began happening when the US Army was relieving the 1st Marine Division on Guadalcanal, in 1942, for the USMC to prepare for the next assault on the Japanese. The Marines did not want to give up the M1941 Johnson, or the Johnson Light Machinegun. The high brass did not want the US Army logistics system cluttered up with rifle parts that were not useable on the M1 Garand, (and it wasn't invented here {NIH}, Springfield Armory, Springfield, MA} THANK YOU VERY MUCH! The Johnson Light Machinegun was also used by the First Special Service Forces in Italy against the Germans, and the First Special Service Forces did not want to give them up. This seems to be a common thought by those that used the JSAR (M1941 Johnson Semi-Auto Rifle), and the Johnson LMG, in combat. The Johnson Light Machinegun was a 12 1/2 pound machine gun with a 25 round magazine, that Melvin Maynard Johnson demonstrated many times firing it with one hand, held up in front of him. The Johnson Light Machingun fired the .30-06 cartridge, the same as the M1 Garand, the .30 Cal Browning Machineguns, and the BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle). It would have been competition for the BAR, had it been selected as a standard issue weapon. As compared to the BAR, the Johnson LMG weighed 12 1/2 pounds, the BAR weighed 26 pounds; the Johnson LMG had a 25 round magazine, the BAR had a 20 round magazine; the Johnson LMG could be held and fired with one hand, the BAR always required two hands; the cyclic rate of fire for the Johnson LMG was 600 rounds per minute (which could be slowed down), the BAR cyclic rate was single shot and (correct me if I'm wrong) about 350 or 500 (selectable), and many other comparisons where the Johnson LMG was superior to the BAR. I used the BAR and I liked it very much! I do regret never getting the opportunity to use the Johnson LMG. The Johnson LMG was also built with the same receiver as the M1941 Johnson SAR; with the bolt and trigger group differing to allow for selectable semi-auto or full auto firing. The Johnson Semi-Automatic Rifle M1941 could change calibers easily, by simply removing the barrel (I've done a thousand times, it takes about 15 to 20 seconds), and installing another barrel. It had barrels with various calibers built for it, and it could fire 7.7 Japanese, 7 x 57mm Mauser, 8 x 57mm Mauser, and any other that are near the same size cartridges. It could be loaded with a standard 5 round stripper clip, or load a single cartridge at a time, into a 10 round magazine (topping it up using a 5 round stripper clip, or a single round with the bolt open or closed was a normal activity). If you see a Johnson SAR at the range, ask the owner about getting a demonstration, I do a demo quite frequently, and offer shooters a chance to shoot a real rarity. They are always amazed at the light recoil as compared to the M1 Garand, especially since they both shoot the same ammo. On that note, the M1941 Johnson can use M1 Ball or M2 Ball, and the M1 Garand cannot shoot the M1 Ball without endangering the M1 Garand and the shooter. M2 Ball was designed for the M1 Garand, but can be fired in the Browning Machine Guns, the BAR, the 1903/1903A1-A3-A4, and the M1917. M1 Ball was the .30-06 cartridge designed for the M1903 Springfield. The .30 Cal Browning Machine Gun and the BAR were designed to use M1 Ball, which gave the machine guns a range of 2,500 yards, and the volley fire capability of the M1903 Springfields a range of 2,000 yards. M2 Ball cuts that range down to between 2,000 to 2,200 yards for the machine guns and 1,500 to 1,800 yards for the M1903 Springfield in volley fire mode. Don't think for a minute that I do not have a love for the M1 Garand, and the BAR, they are both excellent for their intended applications. However, I think that the people who prevented the M1941 Johnson SAR and the Johnson LMG, from being alternate issue weapons, did the US a disservice. Had the M1941 Johnson been declared an alternate issue, and been produced, the US Marine Corps would have had a semi-auto rifle at least a year before they began receiving the M1 Garand, and the Johnson LMG would have been much more manageable in the Pacific Theater than the BAR. The Johnson products could have been manufactured in many locations throughout the US, whereas the M1 Garand and the BAR were manufactured in the heart of the gun manufacturing industry in Massachussetts, and Connecticut, leaving the US open to a possible single episode of sabotage, which could have interfered with the war effort! ` Last edited by Gyrene; 09-19-2006 at 02:54 PM.

09-10-2006, 01:33 PM	#6
FutureMarine Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: PRK Posts: 1,946	i have handled one only at sacramento and Reno gunshows. id like one, just too expensive __________________ Semper Fi

09-09-2006, 06:33 AM	#2
Pred Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,873 Blog Entries: 3	Hmmm... Don't see many of those.

09-09-2006, 10:32 AM	#3
DANA Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: WAITSFIELD VERMONT Posts: 1,595	Got mine in 1953 for $67.50 DANA