Carcano blues

shikari · 07-14-2008, 05:28 AM

Hi folks. I'm a new chum on this site and I need help about one of my favourite rifles. People on the range in Brisbane, Australia tell me it is the worst rifle in the world and shrug when I explain myproblem. The rifle is a carcano. I have two identical 91 - 38 short rifles. One shoots really well with 150 grain cast bullets (average 2 moa) while the other gets around 6 inches at 100 yards. I tried glass bedding the bad boy using a sporterised stock and it made no difference. I crowned the barrel with no real change, Both rifles are in good condition with good barrels. Any ideas?

Dookiebutt · 07-14-2008, 06:23 AM

Welcome to the forum. I would try posting this in the Military Firearms section. You are bound to get some good advice there.

TexasT · 07-14-2008, 10:39 AM

It's been moved.

TheWanderingMind · 07-14-2008, 10:51 AM

Well, I don't know a whole lot about the mechanics of this, but I'm told "slugging" a misperforming gun often reveals an oversized bore or similar problem which can affect accuracy. Who knows? You may be shooting 6.5 in a 7.7 bore still attached to a 6.5 chamber or something...

At 100 yards, even if the projectile was coming out sideways, it would still have enough motive force to keep it within 6 inches, I would think. I know of a malperforming Israeli .308 Mauser where the "gunsmith" had begun trying to convert it back to 7.92 by boring out the barrel, without changing the chamber area, and sold it off before finishing the job. The friend who owned it finally figured it out, and had his real gunsmith swap out the bad barrel for a 7.62mm. But, the thing would keep within 6-8" groups at 100 yards, and just about drove my friend absolutely bonkers!

This one, though, needs to be addressed by one of our "real" gunsmiths on the forum. Anyone?

Rex in OTZ · 07-14-2008, 11:06 PM

Some of the most knowlegable carcano experts have been from Australia
on "gunboardsforums" italian weapons section back thru the blogs a few stand out like "Doc AV" of AV Ballistics who is a wealth of information on the carcano. Doc AV was the one who had related the shooting clubs there converting them to 7.62x39 useing Enfield #1 barrels
by cutting them back and finish reaming them (Enfields had 311 & bigger bores) he also related that some Canadian frim had lopped off carcano barrels and back bore'd and pinned in place replacement barrels (these were not so safe to shoot) yet a very savvy fella in Missouri had done such conversions useing chrome lined SKS barrels as allot of SKS's later on were pressed & pinned in place.
I had a 7.62x39 conversion useing a 1914 Enfield barrel but the outfit no-longer does this mod.

GlockMeister · 07-14-2008, 11:25 PM

What condition is the crown in one the one that shoots poorly? The crown does and can affect accuracy. What about just taking it to a competent gunsmith and have them check it out?

shikari · 07-15-2008, 05:28 AM

Thanks guys. Slugging the bore on my bad carcano came out virtually the the same as the good one - .268". I intend to return the bad boy to its military stock like the other one which shoots well in its original stock complete with bayonet fitting. The baynot fitting slides over the barrel and clamps the barrel to the forend of the stock by two bolts. I guess this makes a rigid base to mount a bayonet, but it probably dampens any wild gyrations of the very light barrel. I have never shot this rifle in its military stock as I thought going to a glass bedded sporting stock would be better. One can but try and I guess the people who built this rifle knew a thing or two. I will work up some loads using 140 and 150 grain cast bullets and the new 160 grain Hornady projectile designed for the Carcano. I love shooting milsurp rifles, especially those that need work - otherwise it would be like shooting my 7.62 Omark with its 10X scope off the bench. Sub moa almost every time which can make life boring!
Shikari

SwedeSteve · 07-15-2008, 01:18 PM

First place, we ARE in the Military Firearms Forum, so there was no need to move the thread. There is no Carcano Forum, so he posted it in "Other" MF's.
shikari- It sounds as if you are on the right track !! I too enjoy tinkering with mediocre shooting milsurps and seeing what I can do to tune them up.

TexasT · 07-15-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwedeSteve

First place, we ARE in the Military Firearms Forum, so there was no need to move the thread. There is no Carcano Forum, so he posted it in "Other" MF's.
shikari- It sounds as if you are on the right track !! I too enjoy tinkering with mediocre shooting milsurps and seeing what I can do to tune them up.

It was posted in the powder keg and I moved it here.

shikari · 07-20-2008, 05:04 PM

Shooting the carcano in its military stock (with matching numbers) produced worse groups than before - 10 inches at 100 meters and some shots off the paper. Took the rifle to a retired gunsmith who found a faint bulge in the barrel about 1" from the muzzle. Cut back barrel 2" and re crowned. Moved the foresight back. Dropped the rifle back into the bedded sporting stock and loaded some ammo. Success!!! Groups averaged around 1" at 50 metres with the new 160 gr Hornady for the Carcano and modest charges of Win 760. Impact is around 9" high at this range, but that's because of the Carcano's battle sights being set at 200m. I know the rifle has lost its value as a collectors item, but I am not a collector and rather than sell it or let it mould in a safe, it's now a handy hunting rifle that will be used on pigs and deer.

toolman · 07-20-2008, 07:27 PM

Congrats! Ya gotta love having a little short but powerful carbine when chasing pigs.

TheWanderingMind · 07-31-2008, 01:17 PM

Hot dang! That's great! Now all you need is a taller replacement front sight, if you can fit one, or a build-up of the sight blade with epoxy putty. Either which way, that seems like such a little problem now. You've got a consistently accurate, lightweight carbine for chasing your piggies... Get out there and enjoy!!!

shikari · 08-03-2008, 04:57 AM

Looking for an extractor for the Carcano. Mine is too weak on one of my 91/38s to extract fired full power loads. Could be the temper in the spring has gone. Any idea where I could get one? I have been told that all Carcanos use the same bolt setup but the extractors might be different
Thanks

07-14-2008, 10:39 AM	#3
TexasT Mrs. HMFIC Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Everywhere you want to be. Posts: 4,218 Blog Entries: 16	It's been moved. __________________ I'm just a little bit caught in the middle. Life is a maze. Love is a riddle.

07-14-2008, 10:51 AM	#4
TheWanderingMind Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Wichita Falls Texas Posts: 633 Images: 13 Blog Entries: 5	Well, I don't know a whole lot about the mechanics of this, but I'm told "slugging" a misperforming gun often reveals an oversized bore or similar problem which can affect accuracy. Who knows? You may be shooting 6.5 in a 7.7 bore still attached to a 6.5 chamber or something... At 100 yards, even if the projectile was coming out sideways, it would still have enough motive force to keep it within 6 inches, I would think. I know of a malperforming Israeli .308 Mauser where the "gunsmith" had begun trying to convert it back to 7.92 by boring out the barrel, without changing the chamber area, and sold it off before finishing the job. The friend who owned it finally figured it out, and had his real gunsmith swap out the bad barrel for a 7.62mm. But, the thing would keep within 6-8" groups at 100 yards, and just about drove my friend absolutely bonkers! This one, though, needs to be addressed by one of our "real" gunsmiths on the forum. Anyone? __________________ Coincidences happen when I pray, and they don't when I don't... Last edited by TheWanderingMind; 07-14-2008 at 10:59 AM.

07-14-2008, 11:06 PM	#5
Rex in OTZ Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kotzebue, Alaska Posts: 441	Aussie Carcano's Some of the most knowlegable carcano experts have been from Australia on "gunboardsforums" italian weapons section back thru the blogs a few stand out like "Doc AV" of AV Ballistics who is a wealth of information on the carcano. Doc AV was the one who had related the shooting clubs there converting them to 7.62x39 useing Enfield #1 barrels by cutting them back and finish reaming them (Enfields had 311 & bigger bores) he also related that some Canadian frim had lopped off carcano barrels and back bore'd and pinned in place replacement barrels (these were not so safe to shoot) yet a very savvy fella in Missouri had done such conversions useing chrome lined SKS barrels as allot of SKS's later on were pressed & pinned in place. I had a 7.62x39 conversion useing a 1914 Enfield barrel but the outfit no-longer does this mod.

07-14-2008, 11:25 PM	#6
GlockMeister Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 5,504	What condition is the crown in one the one that shoots poorly? The crown does and can affect accuracy. What about just taking it to a competent gunsmith and have them check it out? __________________ I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!

07-15-2008, 05:28 AM	#7
shikari Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 12	carcano blues Thanks guys. Slugging the bore on my bad carcano came out virtually the the same as the good one - .268". I intend to return the bad boy to its military stock like the other one which shoots well in its original stock complete with bayonet fitting. The baynot fitting slides over the barrel and clamps the barrel to the forend of the stock by two bolts. I guess this makes a rigid base to mount a bayonet, but it probably dampens any wild gyrations of the very light barrel. I have never shot this rifle in its military stock as I thought going to a glass bedded sporting stock would be better. One can but try and I guess the people who built this rifle knew a thing or two. I will work up some loads using 140 and 150 grain cast bullets and the new 160 grain Hornady projectile designed for the Carcano. I love shooting milsurp rifles, especially those that need work - otherwise it would be like shooting my 7.62 Omark with its 10X scope off the bench. Sub moa almost every time which can make life boring! Shikari

07-14-2008, 05:28 AM	#1
shikari Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 12	Carcano blues Hi folks. I'm a new chum on this site and I need help about one of my favourite rifles. People on the range in Brisbane, Australia tell me it is the worst rifle in the world and shrug when I explain myproblem. The rifle is a carcano. I have two identical 91 - 38 short rifles. One shoots really well with 150 grain cast bullets (average 2 moa) while the other gets around 6 inches at 100 yards. I tried glass bedding the bad boy using a sporterised stock and it made no difference. I crowned the barrel with no real change, Both rifles are in good condition with good barrels. Any ideas?

07-14-2008, 06:23 AM	#2
Dookiebutt Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: America's North Coast Posts: 1,163	Welcome to the forum. I would try posting this in the Military Firearms section. You are bound to get some good advice there.

07-15-2008, 01:18 PM	#8
SwedeSteve Thor's Hammer Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Alaska Posts: 10,372 Images: 1	First place, we ARE in the Military Firearms Forum, so there was no need to move the thread. There is no Carcano Forum, so he posted it in "Other" MF's. shikari- It sounds as if you are on the right track !! I too enjoy tinkering with mediocre shooting milsurps and seeing what I can do to tune them up. __________________ Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers

07-20-2008, 05:04 PM	#10
shikari Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 12	Shooting the carcano in its military stock (with matching numbers) produced worse groups than before - 10 inches at 100 meters and some shots off the paper. Took the rifle to a retired gunsmith who found a faint bulge in the barrel about 1" from the muzzle. Cut back barrel 2" and re crowned. Moved the foresight back. Dropped the rifle back into the bedded sporting stock and loaded some ammo. Success!!! Groups averaged around 1" at 50 metres with the new 160 gr Hornady for the Carcano and modest charges of Win 760. Impact is around 9" high at this range, but that's because of the Carcano's battle sights being set at 200m. I know the rifle has lost its value as a collectors item, but I am not a collector and rather than sell it or let it mould in a safe, it's now a handy hunting rifle that will be used on pigs and deer.

07-20-2008, 07:27 PM	#11
toolman Mr. Fixit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: abilene,tx Posts: 5,582 Blog Entries: 22	Congrats! Ya gotta love having a little short but powerful carbine when chasing pigs. __________________ Don't be messin' with my gun!

07-31-2008, 01:17 PM	#12
TheWanderingMind Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Wichita Falls Texas Posts: 633 Images: 13 Blog Entries: 5	Hot dang! That's great! Now all you need is a taller replacement front sight, if you can fit one, or a build-up of the sight blade with epoxy putty. Either which way, that seems like such a little problem now. You've got a consistently accurate, lightweight carbine for chasing your piggies... Get out there and enjoy!!! __________________ Coincidences happen when I pray, and they don't when I don't...

08-03-2008, 04:57 AM	#13
shikari Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 12	Looking for an extractor for the Carcano. Mine is too weak on one of my 91/38s to extract fired full power loads. Could be the temper in the spring has gone. Any idea where I could get one? I have been told that all Carcanos use the same bolt setup but the extractors might be different Thanks