so many things make a difference, is the bad guy 100 or 400 lbs is he wearing a t shirt or a full parka and soft body armor is he behind glass or wood? just too many things to come up with a single answer.
so many things make a difference, is the bad guy 100 or 400 lbs is he wearing a t shirt or a full parka and soft body armor is he behind glass or wood? just too many things to come up with a single answer.
+1 good answer I like that. Honestly, zip guns have killed folks and people survive rifle shots who knows? People die from punches.
Get proficient with your weapon and use it when it is neccessary. A gun is not a negotiation tool or a threatening device. Used properly a spoon is lethal.
My beretta 9mm... not a renowned stopping round... I was surgical with it at 20 yards. My .45,... renowned stopping round I am surgical at 10 and a decent shot at 20. In real life? When receiving fire and shooting at a moving target I may get 1 out of 5-10 shots in body mass.
Who knows... I DO know this. When ur weapon runs empty or if it misfeeds. You will do more damage feeding it to an assailant. So maintain ur weapon and learn it proficiently and you are still looking at 50% target hit and prime area striking at best in a live situation.
Personally the most you could get out of a bullet would be it enters the body does all of the energy dumping it can and then creates a bulge on the back side of the body. There for dumping all of the kinetic energy into the body cavity.
However a great theory, it would be impossible. As others have stated there are far too many variables.
Personally the most you could get out of a bullet would be it enters the body does all of the energy dumping it can and then creates a bulge on the back side of the body. There for dumping all of the kinetic energy into the body cavity.
However a great theory, it would be impossible. As others have stated there are far too many variables.
Well said. And THEN if you really want this thread to get into some wacky physics you could research the kinetic energy / inerta deposits of projectiles strikling a gelatinous form in excess of 300 yards. Whooo there's some funky behavior. Downward angle terminal velocity charactaristcs compounded by inertial force. Hmmmm yoda physics there my friend
After days of digging I've settled back on my ol' 230gr Golden Sabers which give a reliable 14"-20" of penetration and .68"-.76" expansion, clothed or unclothed. Sold. I'd like to know that they moved a little faster out of my 4.25" barrel, BUT the +P 230s actually penetrate less and don't deal as well with clothing. Very strange, I understand it, but it's strange still. Besides, the wound channel volume of the 230s is enormous anyway.
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Get the largest caliber you can fire accurately, rapidly, in the largest gun useful for the purpose.
I will add what I have seen and it can be taken as anyone wants. Thats all I can do.
I have shot a fair number of critters over a good period of time to know the best projectiles are the ones that penetrate deep or go all the way through. From my experience, projectiles that expand some and penetrate deep work best in any handgun caliber. I have used more than I can count of the original Winchster Rangers in 147. The ones that can be bought at walmart now in 50 round boxes that read Personal protection on the box flap. Gello is veryconsistant, animals are not. I have found a projectile will give a range of penetration in flesh. The OSM round I have used alot gives me 10"-17" of penetration depending on the bone hit, or amount of air inlungs. It gets a consistant 13" in gello. The 147 XTP gives similar performance, but for a higher price. My favorite is 124 XTPs at 1250fps though. Same penetration, with more so called energy or "power" as some would say. All calibers are about the same from what I have seen. A good 9mm that expands makes a wound that looks like a 45 wound, there really aint that much difference in flesh wounding between the two when the projectile expands and penetrated the same. All calibers have projectiles that penetrate less and I could name a few.
One in particular terrible failure I seen was on a raccoon that was about 12-15 pounds. It was a brave critter, very agressive and not afraid of people. My grandma called me with a concern about it and I thought I would give some Winchester 115 +P+ Rangers a whirl for some testing. I met the critter in the barn. It was an epic standoff and fire fight! It saw me, looked at me and was acting agressive as I was told. I put a round in its chest and all it did was charge me. I got lucky on the second shot and hit it again as it came at me. The second round stopped it, it shook it off like a dog shking water off from it and continued its charge!!! Before I touched off the third round it turned to the left and I put one in its side. It continued to turn and ran uder some plywood sheets leaned against the wall and flopped violently for 30 or so seconds. I drug it out and sliced it open. All three rounds of these police issue rounds penetrated right at 5"!!! It took 3 of these rounds restricted to LEO by Winchester to take down a 15 pound at the most varmint!! The rest of the rounds were used on the less sturdy woodchucks around the barns with similar penetration. I have killed raccoons with 124 Hydrashoks in the standard and +P+ load that got 8-10" of penetration with far better results, One was even a one shot DRT kill on a raccoon twice the size of that. Hornady TAP loaded to 1090 for the 124s that always go all the way through kille even better. When I shoot 100-150 pound crop munchers called deer with a pistol I use a round I KNOW will penetrate atleast 10". Even then I get to cherry pick my shots and pass on less then optimal shots.
From shooting critters over a good period of time I concluded penetration is what kills for a pistol round. Even better is one that expands along the way, even if it is just a little like the OSM round or XTP, in any caliber.
In real life I have only seen one round used on two leg critters. in the form of ball and from a 9mm. At close range and in the hands of well trained people, it does just fine. It does even better if bone is hit. Infact I have a rare picture of a 207 pound deer I shot with Winchester M882 ball in the neck. The projectile showd signs of yaw before it hit the spine, and blew a fist size hole out the other sode of the neck. I will PM it to you my man!!
All I can say is gello can give a good indication of what a round will penetrate within a range in real life in flesh. Infact I found a report on the OSM round online that gave the same exact 10-17" panatration value I found on critters for 2 leg critters. Some rounds like Hydrashoks, from what I have seen have less variance from the gello findings. They are excelent rounds. Others that give 8" in gello might go 10" in real fleshy targets, or might only get 5" like I got for three straight rounds. FWIW, the Goldensaber was the first 9mm hollowpoint I used on an animal over 100 pounds. it worked better than I thought and I have used many flavors of the Goldensaber in 9, 40, and 45. Infact it is one of the few 40 rounds that can come close to 9mm or 45 performance on target. Awesome rounds, right up there with XTPs and Hydrashoks. The 185 Goldensaber will serve you just fine.
Too many rounds put down range to give a full in depth report, but I will answer any question for you anyday if I have experience with a round you have questions about......
I will add what I have seen and it can be taken as anyone wants. Thats all I can do.
I have shot a fair number of critters over a good period of time to know the best projectiles are the ones that penetrate deep or go all the way through. From my experience, projectiles that expand some and penetrate deep work best in any handgun caliber. I have used more than I can count of the original Winchster Rangers in 147. The ones that can be bought at walmart now in 50 round boxes that read Personal protection on the box flap. Gello is very consistant, animals are not. I have found a projectile will give a range of penetration in flesh. The OSM round I have used alot gives me 10"-17" of penetration depending on the bone hit, or amount of air in lungs. It gets a consistant 13" in gello. The 147 XTP gives similar performance, but for a higher price. My favorite is 124 XTPs at 1250fps though. Same penetration, with more so called energy or "power" as some would say. All calibers are about the same from what I have seen. A good 9mm that expands makes a wound that looks like a 45 wound, there really aint that much difference in flesh wounding between the two when the projectile expands and penetrated the same. All calibers have projectiles that penetrate less and I could name a few.
One in particular terrible failure I seen was on a raccoon that was about 12-15 pounds. It was a brave critter, very agressive and not afraid of people. My grandma called me with a concern about it and I thought I would give some Winchester 115 +P+ Rangers a whirl for some testing. I met the critter in the barn. It was an epic standoff and fire fight! It saw me, looked at me and was acting agressive as I was told. I put a round in its chest and all it did was charge me. I got lucky on the second shot and hit it again as it came at me. The second round stopped it, it shook it off like a dog shking water off from it and continued its charge!!! Before I touched off the third round it turned to the left and I put one in its side. It continued to turn and ran under some plywood sheets leaned against the wall and flopped violently for 30 or so seconds. I drug it out and sliced it open. All three rounds of these police issue rounds penetrated right at 5"!!! It took 3 of these rounds restricted to LEO by Winchester to take down a 15 pound at the most varmint!! The rest of the rounds were used on the less sturdy woodchucks around the barns with similar penetration. I have killed raccoons with 124 Hydrashoks in the standard and +P+ load that got 8-10" of penetration with far better results, One was even a one shot DRT kill on a raccoon twice the size of that. Hornady TAP loaded to 1090 for the 124s that always go all the way through and killed even better. When I shoot 100-150 pound crop munchers called deer with a pistol I use a round I KNOW will penetrate atleast 10". Even then I get to cherry pick my shots and pass on less then optimal shots.
From shooting critters over a good period of time I concluded penetration is what kills for a pistol round. Even better is one that expands along the way, even if it is just a little like the OSM round or XTP, in any caliber.
In real life I have only seen one round used on two leg critters. in the form of ball and from a 9mm. At close range and in the hands of well trained people, it does just fine. It does even better if bone is hit. Infact I have a rare picture of a 207 pound deer I shot with Winchester M882 ball in the neck. The projectile showd signs of yaw before it hit the spine, and blew a fist size hole out the other sode of the neck. I will PM it to you my man!!
All I can say is gello can give a good indication of what a round will penetrate within a range in real life in flesh. Infact I found a report on the OSM round online that gave the same exact 10-17" panatration value I found on critters for 2 leg critters. Some rounds like Hydrashoks, from what I have seen have less variance from the gello findings. They are excelent rounds. Others that give 8" in gello might go 10" in real fleshy targets, or might only get 5" like I got for three straight rounds. FWIW, the Goldensaber was the first 9mm hollowpoint I used on an animal over 100 pounds. it worked better than I thought and I have used many flavors of the Goldensaber in 9, 40, and 45. Infact it is one of the few 40 rounds that can come close to 9mm or 45 performance on target. Awesome rounds, right up there with XTPs and Hydrashoks. The 185 Goldensaber will serve you just fine.
Too many rounds put down range to give a full in depth report, but I will answer any question for you anyday if I have experience with a round you have questions about......
you meen on top of the mask, i need really expensive ammo to be a ninja.
im sticking with my 230 grn jhps. if cover has to be penetrated, i want my round to do the job.
I think I would rather know how to get the bullet to hit where I want,and second,what it is going to do once it's there. (not very smart in this bunch,huh?) ,,,sam.
Pppptttt! Yeah but what fun is that? Lol just kidding man. I want a bullet like I like my women. Do the job its there to do and then... disappear. Poof!
You should research actual shootings and see how the bullet performed. Shooting into Gelatin is a scientifically controlled situation in the best of circumstances. A lot of the police reports and autopsy's report differently than what a lab test does. With this said I do use the Remington Golden Sabers because they are one bullet that feeds and functions every time in my pistol. Shoot several boxes of which ever ammo you decide on and make sure your pistol will function with them 100% of the time.
A one shot stop study is what first led me to the .45 and the GS. The rest of my research, which has been fairly extensive, has been mostly supporting evidence. I'm happy with it.
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Get the largest caliber you can fire accurately, rapidly, in the largest gun useful for the purpose.
I guess I will just stick to my .357 Magnum.
There is a pretty basic table listed here about penetration and expansion of rounds.
It is noted that the more a round expands the less it penetrates. .357 Magnum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am not an expert but I do know a few things. There is no one bullet that will always stop every time. As Barry is doing you hedge your bets by selecting the best round for your handgun.
The second thing is a hit with any round out performs any miss with a round. So practice with your handgun often. Shoot it with the rounds you selected and shoot it in as many different scenarios as you can. I recommend even shooting the off hand as in left if your right handed or right if your left handed.
One bad offshoot of this I see is that every one of my handguns likes different ammo. Some will hardly hit the target with certain ammo. So I would have to find ammo that has the stopping power and the accuracy for that particular handgun.
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Last edited by Capt'n Mil Coll; 06-01-2010 at 12:48 AM.
One thing I do at the range is a little game I call "round the world." I put 5 rds push my target back to 10 yd to start and hit 5 quarter/ 50 cent piece size spots on the target and put one in each. Then back to 15 yds and so on. I'm pretty good up to 15-20 yds and that's all my HAND-gun is for.
That helps. Also you can swing the target. Its not a big range of motion but you still have to lead ur target. And then (as was mentioned above) do the same with my left. Now mind you I am not very good but I can put 9 in central mass.
But yes practice is important. And another bumper sticker philosophy that makes sense is the whole a shot that doesn't do anymore then stop someone is better than a miss.
But all the cops and ex cops I know say the same thing... when u are in a live fire situation, if you are 100% shooting paper you MAY shoot at 30%. But the real deal is... for the sake of controlling what you can get to be 100% when plinking and if 30% is all u get then make the 30% count.
"One nation under God"
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