I have always talked a LOT about shotgun for home defense. It's my GO TO gun. I know that my 20" 500 loaded with birdshot will put someone down within the 30" sight distance of my house, but lately I've been re-examining my load choice, which happens to be #4 2 and 3/4 duck load, steel. I know it WILL do the job, but I want what'll do the job the best, you know? SO, I've been looking HARD at tungsten shot, I'd like the lighter buck shots like 3 and 4, perhaps some T. As tungsten is actually MUCH heavier than lead and MUCH harder than steel a lighter load will travel farther, hit harder, and penetrate deeper than either of the 2. SO, I've been scratching my head over this stuff.
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Which appears to be BB and #2x#4 bird shot. Now, I actually lack a little faith in my old #4 BECAUSE it is bird shot, even though I KNOW it has the energy and I'm pretty dang close. . . . I have felt confident in using it, but it's time for me to get a second, third, forth, and so on opinion.
It seems to my mind, that that tungsten BB should hit about like #4 buck (the weights ARE pretty close, the narrower profile and HARD make up makes for much more penetration in the tungsten BB than the lead #4 buck), and the 2x4 should hit about like lead BB. In my head that seems ideal, but I don't know enough about penetration of such loads at 30 feet.
I can tell you that the pattern at that range is PERFECT for self defense out of my gun.
My conclusion as of now is that the 2x4 duplex would be IDEAL for home defense. I'd LOVE to try the BB for deer hunting.
Any thoughts?
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In 30 feet ANYTHING will do the job. I'm really looking hard for whats absolutely the best. I mean, this isn't ammo I'm going to be burning at the range. I'm FINE with paying $3-$5 a shot for a home defense load. I just want whatever is going to give me THE VERY best chances in a fire fight with my loved ones behind me.
I keep hearing that using hand loads for self defense can be skewed as premeditated murder. I don't understand HOW THE HELL that is any more true than buying these HD loads or hollow-point pistol rounds designed for human being or to perform in analogs like gelatin.
In any event, where shotguns are concerned, they are so good even with the crappy loads, the best factory load available is FINE by me, I don't need to hand tune it.
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This little conundrum has prompted me to finally give ballistics gelatin making a try, SO, I'll report back, some time in the future with comparative tests.
In the mean time, I'm still open to suggestions and input!
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I keep my 870 loaded with alternating slug and double ought buckshot loads.
I believe a home invader will likely be on either legal or illegal drugs and may have some type body armor.
I believe the odds of the former are likely and the latter are unlikely. Still I like to be prepared for either event. In either case, I have something to put him down. That light shot packs a LOT of shock, I keep HIGH power and super high speed slugs on the stock wrap. It won't utterly defeat heavy body armor, but it will break all of his ribs, perhaps puncture a lung.
I'm about to buy some GI surplus 00. That stuff will utterly defeat almost any body armor.
I'm a little apprehensive about using 00 for my PRIMARY defensive load. That stuff will go all the way through my house and into my neighbors, but I definitely want to have some on hand.
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I feel buck shot is the best choice because an intruder might slip into a room and most likely hide beside a door way or wall if they become aware your up to see whats going on. They may leave or find a place to hide.
I personaly would like to be able to blast the wall, door and door faceing to try to kill the intruder.
My 20" barrel Mossey 590 will hold 10 rounds of 2&3/4...00 Buck shot. So I have plenty of fire power.
I don't think shot will do that, yet Buck shot will.
As far as damage to the home, thats the least of my worry, it can be fixed. I've got to get rid of the problem.
I figure if someone is brave enough to enter my home to commit a crime they need to understand it's very likely they will leave it in a body bag.
And I would expect them to know that so, I would expect them to be prepard for me.
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Last edited by ArkansasHunter; 07-25-2010 at 01:07 AM.
I use the low recoil LE loads in 12 ga. When I was a Fed we tried the #4 buck loads but quickly went back to the OO. Not enough penetration with the #4s.
I, too, discounted some type body armor until it actually happened in Amarillo. Someone into drugs invaded a home but was shot in an area not covered by the body armor.
I feel buck shot is the best choice because an intruder might slip into a room and most likely hide beside a door way or wall if they become aware your up to see whats going on. They may leave or find a place to hide.
I personaly would like to be able to blast the wall, door and door faceing to try to kill the intruder.
My 20" barrell Mossey 590 will hold 10 rounds of 2&3/4...00 Buck shot. So I have plenty of fire power.
I don't think shot will do that, yet Buck shot will.
As far as damage to the home, thats the least of my worry, it can be fixed. I've got to get rid of the problem.
I figure if someone is brave enough to enter my home to commit a crime they need to understand it's very likely they will leave it in a body bag.
And I would expect them to know that so I would expect them to be prepard for me.
That's another reason I keep the slugs and want the buckshot on hand, but even those steel number 4 will go clean through 2 layers of sheet rock and a 2x4 stud at 15 feet. I tested it on scrap pieces. I can't say that it's still lethal, but, again, that's why I keep slugs in the stock wrap, and want 00 on the sling. I'm not worried about damage to my house, just my neighbors safety.
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i would never ever trust that bird shot is going to end a threat. i have shot too many small animals at close range and seen that it doesnt guarantee to kill a small animal, therefore i sure am not going to trust it too stop a determined crack head.
I've toyed with that idea, I'm sure that if it were practical, with the price of the flechettes as cheap as they are, someone would have them commercially available.
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i would never ever trust that bird shot is going to end a threat. i have shot too many small animals at close range and seen that it doesnt guarantee to kill a small animal, therefore i sure am not going to trust it too stop a determined crack head.
My experience is quite the contrary. Within about 30' any small game I have hit with duck or bird loads has been liquefied or else hand a single 2" wide hold clear trough. BUT, I can agree with your concerns.
In any event, I'll be testing my preferred duck load (which has be come BB after this little bout of math) on gelatin, soon I hope. I'll let you guys know what's up and down from there. I'm STILL open to input on the effectiveness of these tungsten loads.
I'm almost dead set on getting something in tungsten, as it is harder hitting than lead AND non toxic (you may be surprised the way shot can bounce, not to mention my loved ones ARE somewhere in the house!). I just don't know which load is better for my situation.
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When I went through the police academy they had us shooting AA 7 1\2 trap loads and 00 Buck at 20 feet. The trap loads through a 4 inch pattern and the 00 Buck hit like a slug with maybe one pellet out of the wad. As far as the fletchette loaded shot shells, Sportsman Guide sells it, but it's not cheap.
There is a little pawn store/gun shop in Manitou Springs, CO that sold flechettes by the pound. Of course I picked up a pound. Those things are EVIL! Absolutely tore up body armor. We put the Second Chance vest around a watermelon in a thick sweatshirt and shot it from about 15'. There was kevlar from the front of the vest pushed THROUGH the sweatshirt, watermelon, then OUT THE BACK of the vest! I can't remember the exact load, but it was between 17-19gr of 700x with approximately 20-30 flechettes on top of the wad. I'll try to find the pictures, but I have no idea where they might be.
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There is a little pawn store/gun shop in Manitou Springs, CO that sold flechettes by the pound. Of course I picked up a pound. Those things are EVIL! Absolutely tore up body armor. We put the Second Chance vest around a watermelon in a thick sweatshirt and shot it from about 15'. There was kevlar from the front of the vest pushed THROUGH the sweatshirt, watermelon, then OUT THE BACK of the vest! I can't remember the exact load, but it was between 17-19gr of 700x with approximately 20-30 flechettes on top of the wad. I'll try to find the pictures, but I have no idea where they might be.
Yeah, that's what those little steel spikes are good for. I'd bet they go about 150 yards too, given that you can get around 2k FPS out of them. That's just nasty.
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