ATF's new pistol calibers and AP rounds, Raid on Elite Ammunition
I am not sure if you folks saw this. This is a link to one side of the story, the only side that we currently have so far as I can tell. It is primarily the owner of Elite Ammunition giving his account of the raid in a concise manner, and details a little on the new classification of .223, 6.5, and 6.8 alloy bullets.
Very disturbing expose'. They are going to the individual consumers to collect the bullets?
It'll be interesting to see if the same visit was or will be made to Barnes. How long have they been making brass solids now anyway? Will all the distributors who've sold Barnes solids have their customer lists confiscated as well?
__________________ NRA ENDOWMENT MEMBER - Support Our Troops - Land of the Free, because of the Brave.
There are several penetrator rounds in .357 and .44. These are designed for bear and dangerous animals....there are many types of solids are designed for penetration and do have an important sporting and self defense role.
The ammo co must be behind on its kickbacks to the DNC ala Gibson Guitar. About what I'd expect from this lawless regime. Congress needs to cut the money and put holder....who HAS lied ... behind bars. As far as the miscreant atf minions who did this they and their boss need to be disclipined and make restitution.
Until this happens stock up on guns and ammo as we all should.
No charges, we wanted your data base to find out where all the gun owners are.
Back door preliminary lists are being made for total disarmament of the population.
This is just another way to do it. Their cover is blown. You ain't getting our guns!
Even if the law is fairly clear on this. Redefining calibers? Is that an arbitrary ATF decision or a Congressional one. Maybe it's an EO?
Not sure, but the BATFE has not sent anything to any FFLs, ammo distributors etc nor have they posted the "change" on their site under their laws, regulations and rulings section and this supposedly occurred back in last August.
When you try to find more information on this it would seem that the ONLY person out of all the ammunition distributors and manufacturers in the whole country to have run into this problem is Jay Wolf who got in trouble over something with the ATF.
He posted this back in August of 2011. This didn't happen yesterday. I know we have a few FFLs, and gunstore/supply employees in this forum.
Not to mention a small army of re loaders etc. And as far as I can tell not a single person here has seen or been advised of any change in policy by the ATF at their store etc.
I cant even find it on the NRA website. One would think a change of this magnitude and the NRA would be all over. Nope, nothing.
If you have please post it!
I don't reload my ammo nor do I work at a gun store but I do buy ammo frequently several times by the case. I have seen no change in any policy from any distributor either in the last 6 months.
From researching this, it sounds like Jay was doing somethings with making solid brass bullets that wasn't kosher with the ATF and they busted him for it.
1. Do I agree with that? No. I don't think the government should be able to regulate certain types of ammo to begin with.
2. Do I see this new conclusion/ruling from the ATF saying that .223 and 6.5 etc are now designated pistol rounds anywhere besides 4 dozen gun forums and hundreds of forum members all discussing the same Elite Ammunition blog post? No.
3. Keeping in mind my first point, do I think, some small part of Jay's post (and a lot of all the aftermath and fallout over it) of this whole thing is vented anger from what Jay posted and said on his blog? Yea.
And to be fair in my post here, what may have happened to Jay and Elite Ammo might totally be getting the big government shaft.
But again, they are saying a HUUUUUGE change in policy and definition has taken place and 6 months later I see no change let alone notice of it anywhere.
I know this much. If the 2nd amendment didn't say "shall not be infringed" it wouldn't matter. BUT, since it does say that I for one am of the opinion that the founding fathers and our Creator did not expect me to be at a disadvantage to anyone, especially to all of the ABC agencies of government that have no constitutional basis.
Not sure, but the BATFE has not sent anything to any FFLs, ammo distributors etc nor have they posted the "change" on their site under their laws, regulations and rulings section and this supposedly occurred back in last August.
When you try to find more information on this it would seem that the ONLY person out of all the ammunition distributors and manufacturers in the whole country to have run into this problem is Jay Wolf who got in trouble over something with the ATF.
He posted this back in August of 2011. This didn't happen yesterday. I know we have a few FFLs, and gunstore/supply employees in this forum.
Not to mention a small army of re loaders etc. And as far as I can tell not a single person here has seen or been advised of any change in policy by the ATF at their store etc.
I cant even find it on the NRA website. One would think a change of this magnitude and the NRA would be all over. Nope, nothing.
If you have please post it!
I don't reload my ammo nor do I work at a gun store but I do buy ammo frequently several times by the case. I have seen no change in any policy from any distributor either in the last 6 months.
From researching this, it sounds like Jay was doing somethings with making solid brass bullets that wasn't kosher with the ATF and they busted him for it.
1. Do I agree with that? No. I don't think the government should be able to regulate certain types of ammo to begin with.
2. Do I see this new conclusion/ruling from the ATF saying that .223 and 6.5 etc are now designated pistol rounds anywhere besides 4 dozen gun forums and hundreds of forum members all discussing the same Elite Ammunition blog post? No.
3. Keeping in mind my first point, do I think, some small part of Jay's post (and a lot of all the aftermath and fallout over it) of this whole thing is vented anger from what Jay posted and said on his blog? Yea.
And to be fair in my post here, what may have happened to Jay and Elite Ammo might totally be getting the big government shaft.
But again, they are saying a HUUUUUGE change in policy and definition has taken place and 6 months later I see no change let alone notice of it anywhere.
What else was going on about 6 months ago? Just pondering my thoughts.
__________________ NRA ENDOWMENT MEMBER - Support Our Troops - Land of the Free, because of the Brave.
I know this much. If the 2nd amendment didn't say "shall not be infringed" it wouldn't matter. BUT, since it does say that I for one am of the opinion that the founding fathers and our Creator did not expect me to be at a disadvantage to anyone, especially to all of the ABC agencies of government that have no constitutional basis.
Chazam I agree with you and I wish the government saw it that way too.
My only real gripe with this whole blog post from 6 months ago from the guy at Elite Ammunition/thetruthaboutguns is that as I said before, he and the ATF had some dispute to say the least and now the guy is saying that the ATF is re-classifiyng all of these calibers etc and causing a huge stink on the internet.
And I or any of my FFL friends, (or as far as I can tell the NRA for that matter) have not heard a single thing and can't find any proof of that reclassification.
__________________
It's not always the size of the dog in the fight. Often it's the size of the fight in the dog.
This is how the regime operates and has done so in many areas--I would expect the same to be coming out of the ATF. They already have (even after FNF) acted illegally by fiat with the multiple firearm registration rule and have classified routine deliveries of guns for evaluation by manufacturers as `transfers.` It has happened in other areas as well--Gibson Guitar with the arbitrary and incorrect citing under the Lacy act, Amish Milk distributed amongst private buyers, and also new and unchallengable unilateral rules enacted by the EPA (which, short of defunding the EPA cannot be reigned in by anyone elected) as perversion of the clean air act which favor big trucking companies over smaller owner operators (the idea being to squash small businesses with regulations). This is not an illusion; it is and has been happening all over during the regime. Legitimate websites have been shut down for over a year for no reason and later re-authorized without apology. This is how the corrupt regime does business.
I would expect the same from the ATF. The AJ has blatentely lied and tried to `is is` his comments--this is a matter of public record. This (a vehemently anti-gun individual) is head of the DOJ who owns the ATF--and has deliberately purjured himself in front of congress (saying later--well it wasn`t REALLY a lie because I really didn`t mean to lie.....). This agency (with full knowledge of everyone) already instituted an illegal gun running operation (FNF) deliberately violating federal law in order to stage guns in mexico to push for an AWB and additional gun control regulation--thwarted by some patriotic whistleblowers who gave us the real facts. The reigime has illegally made appointments to the NLRB and consumer credit board directly contrary to the language in our constitution. Hussein has publicly stated in his sining statement he did not intend to follow the congressional requirement to not allow FNF type events to happen again. I would expect reclassification (just like the transfer issue with IS real) to surreptitiously attempt to restrict the rights of gun owners. The EPA also has already tried with a `trial balloon` with the invited suit to ban lead ammo--later abandoned (like FNF) after public outcry. So I would expect the USE of the agency to punish individuals and restrict supply of legitimate guns and ammo.
I think the guy does have an axe to grind, but I also can believe this because it fits the pattern of other things this lawless regime has done.
Chazam I agree with you and I wish the government saw it that way too.
My only real gripe with this whole blog post from 6 months ago from the guy at Elite Ammunition/thetruthaboutguns is that as I said before, he and the ATF had some dispute to say the least and now the guy is saying that the ATF is re-classifiyng all of these calibers etc and causing a huge stink on the internet.
And I or any of my FFL friends, (or as far as I can tell the NRA for that matter) have not heard a single thing and can't find any proof of that reclassification.
OK then I'll play devils advocate. They took a handful of rifle calibers with them that day that they now say are pistol calibers. Isn't that correct? Seems that it specifically mentioned the 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and the 5.56X45. All rifle calibers by design but capable of being used in a TC Contender, or with an AR pistol build. If they manage to fly those calibers under the nose of the public, the legislature, and the courts as being "mutated" into handgun calibers, the same reclassification is bound to happen to all of the other rifle calibers that have ever been chambered in the Remington XP-100, the Savage Stryker, And the TC Contender pistols. Who could possibly stop that from happening at that point? I don't trust those minions of Holder & Company as far as I can throw them.
Based solely on the term "shall not be infringed" bullet construction or usage is none of their business.
Here is another thing to consider in this discussion as well. The movement is already afoot to outlaw lead in bullet construction due to its toxicity. That will require alternate metal to be used if we are going to hunt, target shoot or defend our persons from enemies; foreign and domestic. See then how easily they could classify all the viable substitutes as AP after they morph them into handgun ammo???? They need reined in now!
Here is another thing to consider in this discussion as well. The movement is already afoot to outlaw lead in bullet construction due to its toxicity. That will require alternate metal to be used if we are going to hunt, target shoot or defend our persons from enemies; foreign and domestic. See then how easily they could classify all the viable substitutes as AP after they morph them into handgun ammo???? They need reined in now!
Excellent points in this post and the prior. The resident declaired he would do this "under the radar". Some of us are seeing what is happening!
OK then I'll play devils advocate. They took a handful of rifle calibers with them that day that they now say are pistol calibers. Isn't that correct? Seems that it specifically mentioned the 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and the 5.56X45. All rifle calibers by design but capable of being used in a TC Contender, or with an AR pistol build.
Who knows what they did or said that day. All we have is what the guy who owned the store posted on his blog. And he knows full well that it's not like the ATF agents handling his case are going to post their side of events on it. Do I think the current ATF/govt. would like to regulate all of us gun owners into extinction if they could? Yup.
Again the biggest point I have regarding his blog post is that he claims that the ATF has already made the decision to re classify all of those sizes of rifle ammo now as pistol ammo. And I can't find proof of it anywhere and neither has anyone else in the industry that I personally know of. When I try to research it, the only thing I can find is more heated posts stemming directly from this guy's blog. And supposedly according to him this change has been in effect now for 6 months now.
I ask this sincerely to any other G&G member else here who is an FFL or ammo distributor etc. Has anyone else over the last half year heard of this MAJOR change from any reputable source other than this guy's blog? Because so far I can't find any. I even called up a guy at my class 3 dealer 15 mins ago and he has heard nothing.
Is Me asking that being unreasonable?
A you know I'm an LEO and even I think the ATF is up to some messed up stuff to say the least. "Operation Gun Runner" and how it is being handled before and especially after the fact is a complete embarrassment to our profession.
I do not doubt that many in the ATF would love something like this but I also live in a world were you need some good measure of verifiable facts to back up your claims too. And for the life of me I can't find any in this case. And if this guy is willing to go big on the allegations of this magnitude it makes me wonder about some of the smaller finer details he also says happened in his case too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaZam
Based solely on the term "shall not be infringed" bullet construction or usage is none of their business.
No TACAV it certainly is not unreasonable of you to ask, and I for one haven't encountered anything regarding it other than that guys blog and this discussion here. Based though on the absolute impossibility that has been encountered trying to get straight answers from this same group that perpetrated F&F it certainly gives me cause for concern. They are not above using any tactic or any other governmental agency either as we have seen with lead by the EPA not so long ago.
They can do that though because they have our money to operate on.
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