patriot act

[Shaun]

Okay Guys and Gals

What is your opinion of the patriot act and the fed's ability to investigate you without your knowledge and the ability to tell the person they are talking to that they can't tell you. In my opinion they are helping the terrorists by restricting our freedom and overstepping their bounds since the biggest enemy to terrorism in freedom. The real patriot act should be to require that every household have at least one firearm for the purpose of self defense.

Lets get some discussions going

Also Jesse will you resist the feds by keeping our membership lists private like the nra is keeping our memberships private and away from the prying eyes of the feds.

[Lord Shrike]

I attended a talk by the number 2 FBI guy in my area and I think there is a bit of a overeaction to the Patriot Act. Granted some of it I think should allways be sunsetted incase abuse occurs but most of it is common sense stuff. The bulk of the legislation basically makes what was allready legal in the mob investigations now legal for for terroism investigations as well.

[TheTroll]

I think its a violation of our rights given to us by our forefathers. I think they overstepped there bounds with this act. I understand the need to capture and track terrorists, but I am not one. I am a vet and a gun owner and a tax payer. Thats about all I have to say.

[Rufus Rhastus J]

Shaun, Troll, I must agree with you both in 100% fashion. We have seen that the gummit will abuse it's people whenever it has a chance. These new laws just make it more simple to abuse the system and to cheat us out of our rights. The gummit simply cannot be trusted! Only a fool would believe a single word that any gummit person has to say. As far as I'm concerned, it's all lies until they can prove otherwise! Ashcroft is a truely scarey man. I tremble to the core when i think how much power these people have taken from the people of America. You can be sure it will never be returned. Watch these power hungry maniacs! They cannot be trusted!:nod:

[PAPA G]

WE'RE SURROUNDED BY ENEMY'S, GUMMINT, DEMO/LIBS, BAD PEOPLE, people who leave their caps lock on

[Rufus Rhastus J]

The ones with thier cap lock left on are the ones who scare me most!

[PAPA G]

Originally posted by Rufus Rhastus J
The ones with thier cap lock left on are the ones who scare me most!

WATCH IT!!!

I have nothing to hide or fear. If they want to tap my phone or read my emails, go right ahead. This paranoia is getting out of hand. They're going after terrorists, not us. They are not going to waste the time and resources to watch where you go onthe internet or tail your car.

[Lord Shrike]

I agree with Lenny. For those of you who are screaming about rights being taken away and tremendous powers being granted to the government what are you refering to precisly. It seems that many of you have boughten into the demoncartic propoganda about Ascroft and are spewing away and assuming this is some montrous bill. What do you really know about it. I'm curious to see what your precise objections to the legislation are.

[Stopper]

It ain't propaganda and any intrusion into our lives is too much. We are supposed to be a free society, not a monitored society. It doesn't matter if you have nothing to hide or do have somehting to hide, it ain't thier business.

They are out of control, I agree 100% with Shaun, Rufus and the Troll, any intrusion is too much. Goverment is way out of control. Besides the Patriot act was a Klinton idea implemented by El Dubya. I told you dems and repubs are cut from the same cloth.

[Lord Shrike]

Again what intrusion are you referring to?

[Shaun]

lets start with warrantless searches of residences of anyone they classify as a threat -- warrantless tapping without control. Then you have the issue that they can search your records if you buy guns and pay cash, or if you pay cash for a plane ticket. I am wondering what Bull I am going to go through next month because I have a one way flight to OR for my vacation. We are US citizens and that means we have a 4th ammendment right to illegal search and seizure and the patriot act does no respect thise rights. The next thing Ashcroft and his goons will come up with is that gun owners are a threat to security and they will want to take our guns. Taking away rights is exactly what a socialist government does to control them they start with the simple ones saying its to protect you then they go after the big ones so they can control everyone.

If I recall the terrorists were arab males 16 - 40 last I checked I am not a camel jockey

[Lord Shrike]

Actually Ashcroft has been very pro gun so far. As for the warrantless searches they aren't so. They still have to convince a judge that the need to search is valid. What has changed is the public filing notice. Same tactics we deployed on the mob thats all. Tapping same thing they still need a warrant signed by a judge the roveing tap is something we have used on mobsters for decades now we can use it on terroists as well. The cash thing I agree on just because I think it is silly. They did this I think because cash is harder to trace but in reality your suggestion of racial profiling at airports would be better. Corse we all know how that'll fly on capital hill.

well if the jack booted thugs kick your (or my) door down and find nothing, they have to replace the door and you might get to sue em. But if they find something...they're doing their job. besides, they aren't coming after us.

Do any of you or anyone you know have any stories about losing your rights? Anything specific? I have not heard from anyone I know about their lives being inconvienced or having their homes searched or violated. But then again I don't hang around with terrorists...or mobsters...

But if the government comes after my guns, they'll have to stay low and find cover.

[Dennis]

Lenny I know quite a few stories
FOR EXAMPLE
A guy I know personally
He was able to keep 4 or 5 girl friends...... I dont know how he did it but he did.
You could go over to his house and they would all be there, one washing dishes the other vacuming the other doing laundry...........all smileing....
it was really funny
We was not a "rich" guy he drove a tow truck
Any way there was this one woman,that she wanted him for her self. He let her know that that wasnt the game plan. so she leaves. with great drama.
about 6 month later
this woman get scooped up in a federal drug case
So as usual they deal
She said that my friend was a drug dealer and manufacturer because she was mad at him over the breakup.
Sooooooo.......................
They come and arrest this guy
They search his house brick by brick
Underground radar, tear the cielings down just destroy the place
Dissassemble his cars
They dont find any .....thats ANY, NONE, ZERO, ZIP, NADA, NO NUTHIN,
not any drugs or any paraphanilia or residue not anything.
They dont have anything.
Sooooooooooo
They seize his property, all of it, The house, the cars, the motorcycle, even a old car with out a motor.
They Sell All his property BEFORE HE GOES TO TRIAL
it was a shuck job from the beginning.
Like an idiot he took a plea to a lesser charge thinking he would get out (public defender)
And he got 12 years.
They HAD to convict him because they had allready disposed of his property.
all his furniture, Tv clothes dissappeared. the house was completly cleaned out and destroyed.
I know this guy personally, saw him all the time.
I am certain he wasnt a dope dealer or dope manufacturer
See, there is one by product of that activity that is hard to hide.
Thats wheelbarrows of cash.
He didnt have that for shure if he did he wouldent have been working so hard and doing with out so much.
This guy was a big guy well known around town bigger than life.
That is what got him in to trouble.
When someone comes to the attention of the federal law enforcement people
(DEA,FBI,ATF,SEC,) or whom ever, they can and will do whatever, to you,
to avoid embarassment. that is what is most important to them.
It is a business to them. they support them selves on what they can seize and sell.
Guilt or innocence is of no concideration they dont care what actually happend
Just what they can influence.
If they can influence a grand jury in to issuing a warrent....
and then make you look guilty enough (reguardless of what actually happend)
and with threats and intimidation get someone to plead to a lesser charge.
They get to seize ALL your stuff, and keep it for themselves
This is a true story Lenny
I was there
So you think they Wont abuse their power?
Ca mon

[Shaun]

Actually Lenny you can't sue the government without permission from the government so the issue of them making a phony search and your having a successful lawsuit is a mute point since they are exempt without government approval. Another great example was Elian Gonzales, I think he should have gone home but the Fed's show up with MP5's raid the house and the agent pointing the gun at the kid and the guy holding the kid will stay in my memory - there was absolutely no reason for an armed incursion on that house which would justify the use of weapons of that grade.

Lebanon PD outside of Nashville - raids the wrong house on a drug raid kills an innocent 60 year old man that thought someone was doing a home invasion on his house. Lets see as a former cop I can say the department was in the wrong for not having the informant id the right house - the next issue was that the city because of government rules allowing for a denial of liability only had to pay the widow 100K for taking her husbands life. Was that right no she should own the city and the officers should have been prosecuted for manslaughter they were let off with just loosing their jobs.

Another one with the feds I have heard was here in my county the BATF stormed a house a month ago and took 15 class 3 weapons and some silencers from a guy here in the area. ATF claimed that he was not licensed and was violationg the law -- guess what he had a license and all guns were legal along with the silencers. BATF still has the guns and refuses to give them up. Now they are claiming he had C4 and thats their justification, he has told local officials there is no way he could get C4 and he wouldn't have it around anyway. The grenades they claimed were his that he made were inert dummies bought at a gun show from what the neighbors are saying. I have to agree with Dennis the feds have too much power -- I respect Local LEO's because I did the job and they do a tough job -- good cops like the one's we have here on this site are hard to find. its just the power of the feds that needs to be taken away to give this country back to the people.

[wes]

Remember the guy in Chicago that the Feds said had ties to terrrorists and was going to build bombs? Well, he's STILL being held and NO charges have ever been filed. Under the Patriot Act, they can hold him forever. That aint right.

[oneastrix]

OK....everybody has an opinion and several points to make. So, what do we do to change things in this country?

[wes]

Vote the Constitution Party.

[Shaun]

Good Quetion Matt - I think we need to vote in a new group that is purely for getting back to basics - that means funding only primary government interests such as military, public saftey (fire and local LEO), and basic operations. this is just a start