Nativity scene barred as not 'historically accurate representation of an event'

Doglips · 11-12-2003, 07:17 PM

BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS
NYC district denies
birth of Jesus?
Nativity scene barred as not 'historically accurate representation of an event'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: November 12, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

In a dispute over display of holiday symbols, New York City schools are allowing Jewish menorahs and Islamic crescents but barring Christian nativity scenes, alleging the depiction of the birth of Christ does not represent a historical event.

In pleadings with a federal court in defense of the ban, New York City lawyers asserted the "suggestion that a crèche is a historically accurate representation of an event with secular significance is wholly disingenuous."

The Jewish and Islamic symbols are allowed, the district says, because they have a secular dimension, but the Christian symbols are "purely religious."

Robert J. Muise, who will challenge the school policy at a federal court hearing tomorrow in Brooklyn, told WorldNetDaily be believes most Americans don't see it that way.

"The birth of Jesus is a historical event which serves as the basis for celebration of Christmas," Muise stated. "It's of importance for both Christians and non-Christians."

Muise's Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center filed a motion to temporarily restrain the city from enforcing its ban on nativity scenes. The center asserts New York's policy "promotes the Jewish and Islamic faiths while conveying the impermissible message of disapproval of Christianity in violation of the U.S. Constitution."

The Michigan group says one public-school principal issued a memo encouraging teachers to bring to school "religious symbols" that represent the Islamic and Jewish religions, but made no mention of Christianity.

Jewish menorahs adorned the halls of the school as part of the authorized displays, the More Center said, but students were not allowed to make and similarly display nativity scenes

A parent who wrote a letter of complaint to her son's teacher received a copy of the school's "Holiday Displays" policy in response.

Kate Ahlers, communications director for New York City's law department, says schools can use things that are secular like menorahs, stars and snowflakes, but the crèche is considered religious.

"There is a separation of church and state that is part of the Constitution," she claimed. "It's a clear belief that people try to follow in schools and public office, and schools are saying they adhere to that belief."

The point of schools, she added, "is not to debate religion; the point of schools is to teach children."

The federal civil-rights lawsuit was filed on behalf of Andrea Skoros and her two elementary-school children against the city of New York and several school officials.

Skoros and her children are devout Roman Catholics.

"Can Christianity be erased from a public school?" Muse asked in a statement. "Can 'Christ' be removed from Christmas? We will soon find out."

NRAJOE · 11-12-2003, 07:23 PM

IDIOTS!

whirlwind · 11-12-2003, 10:36 PM

like they were there! and what the heck does a cresent symbolize?.....911? screw these freaks !id yank my kids from that school so fast it would make their collective heads spin! and that would be doubley painfull cause their head is so far up their azz its not even funny! B@STAGES!

7mmag6 · 11-13-2003, 12:28 AM

wierd the menorah is a representation of the days of passover, if thats not religous than what is, also the crescent is the symbol of muhhamed, whats next displaying the bone from pesach?

Big Dog · 11-13-2003, 04:36 AM

Same old crap - "Equal Rights" as perpetrated by the Government is neither equal or right.

We'll display our Nativity scene with special pride this year. Screw the Liberals.

dhermesc · 11-13-2003, 07:48 AM

While the school district refers to the school music program as the "Seasonal Program" my wife gets up and thanks all the parents for coming to the "CHRISTMAS PROGRAM" and then immediately begins to have the kids sing songs like Silent Night. She had never had a principal try to cross her up - yet.

BattleRifleG3 · 11-13-2003, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7mmag6
wierd the menorah is a representation of the days of passover, if thats not religous than what is, also the crescent is the symbol of muhhamed, whats next displaying the bone from pesach?

Please don't display your bone this holiday season!

But seriously, I do agree with you. Channukkah and whatever Islamic stuff there is being historical, and a representation of a historical event such as the birth of Jesus not being historical?
The Menorrah predate's Channukkah. It was used in the tabernacle in Moses's day. And it has everything to do with religion. Yes, Channukkah is related to historical events in Jewish history, but the Menorrah is the symbol because of the miracle of the oil lasting so long. It's only historical if you believe it actually happened. And then it's religious.

Even people who don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God and God the Son, or born of a virgin, believe that he existed.

11-13-2003, 10:01 AM

The menorah is allowed, and so is the crescent, so why do the christians insist on a complete nativity? Why not just the cross, as the other religions are represented.

You guys don't want equality. You want complete domination.

whirlwind · 11-13-2003, 11:07 AM

because thats our savior ...plain and simple. why is it that christians are the ones that are always denyed their right to worship as we see fit? we have to bend and give up our rights to allow these muslims to exactly what we get penalized for. personally i say screw em! and anyone who is offended by my words or the cross i wear around my neck or my children in a restaurant praying before we eat or the prayer before a football game screw you too!

11-13-2003, 11:26 AM

why don't you answer my question: Why can't the christians display a cross, a symbol, just as the other religions are allowed?

this country was not founded on the principal of christianity dominating other religions. what you want sounds like what they have in hard-line muslim countries.

Lord Shrike · 11-13-2003, 11:45 AM

Actually Lenny I disagree. These symbols are being allowed in conjunction with the Winter Holliday's Which include Christmas, Ramamdan and Hanakuh. The Menora is a symbol of Hanakuh, Don't know exactly what the crescent represents but I bet it has something to do with Ramadan. A nativity scene is representive of Christmas. All the christians want is equal representation. Seems like all we here about in this country is religous and culture tolerance unless its christian religion and culture those are ok to step on evedently.

whirlwind · 11-13-2003, 12:01 PM

because christmas is the celebration of christs birth not his death. and dont people have the right to use whatever symbol they want? like why shouldnt the jews display a star of david instead of a menorra? why shouldnt muslims display sticks of dynamite strapped to a 10 year old instead of a cresent? same thing.

PAPA G · 11-13-2003, 12:18 PM

because Christians are intrinsincly EVIL!!! we are the cause of the worlds problems, all the atheist blame us for the worlds ill's.

doncha just feel awful grinding those poor unfortunates under the Christian Heel??? doesn't the current Crusades, make you angry???

thank God the gutless so-called Christians are following like sheep. makes it easier to round them up.

11-13-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by whirlwind
because christmas is the celebration of christs birth not his death.

Then what's with all the pine trees, fat jolly men, reindeer, elves, and gift giving to children (what, like they're the son of god?). puhlease - give them a christmas tree to display and shut them up about their pagan holiday...

NRAJOE · 11-13-2003, 12:39 PM

Your getting a lump of coal for Christmas Lenny......

whirlwind · 11-13-2003, 12:51 PM

awwwww...did lenny's mommy not ever tell him about santa clause? poor baby. you may ask someone else here about it...i just dont want to break your wittle heart

BattleRifleG3 · 11-13-2003, 02:26 PM

To say that Christians are asking to dominate by putting up a nativity scene compared to Jews showing a Menorrah and Muslims a crescent is one of the lambest things I've heard in a long time. The cross is the symbol of our faith, that Christ saved the world by His death on the cross and resurrection on the third day. I used to know what a Menorrah was in the old tabernacle, I think it may have been called something different.

Seriously, think about it.
"Christians should only be alowed to show a cross, not a whole nativity scene. Showing the whole nativity scene, which is a baby and his virgin mother and people bringing him gifts and animals in the pen is trying to dominate the holiday season."
Seriously. Look at it.

Religious freedom is everyone being able to display what they want from their heritage.

dhermesc · 11-13-2003, 02:57 PM

Lets put it this way, using a cross to celebrate Christmas is like designating Martin Luther King Day fall on the day he was shot.

Big Dog · 11-13-2003, 03:14 PM

How 'bout we send Lenny a big bag of Kingsford's best to roast his Sacred Cow, and the rest of us celebrate the Christmas Holidays the way we see fit?

PAPA G · 11-13-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lenny2
Then what's with all the pine trees, fat jolly men, reindeer, elves, and gift giving to children (what, like they're the son of god?). puhlease - give them a christmas tree to display and shut them up about their pagan holiday...

because the birth of Christ has been *******ized with pagan symbolism, and greedy toy makers. the Son of God never gave gifts, or Hallmark cards for that matter. all he offered was to reform the temple, and bring the those back to the Father, and was crucified for it.

11-12-2003, 07:17 PM	#1
Doglips Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cocoa Florida Posts: 9,089	Nativity scene barred as not 'historically accurate representation of an event' BRAVE NEW SCHOOLS NYC district denies birth of Jesus? Nativity scene barred as not 'historically accurate representation of an event' -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: November 12, 2003 1:00 a.m. Eastern © 2003 WorldNetDaily.com In a dispute over display of holiday symbols, New York City schools are allowing Jewish menorahs and Islamic crescents but barring Christian nativity scenes, alleging the depiction of the birth of Christ does not represent a historical event. In pleadings with a federal court in defense of the ban, New York City lawyers asserted the "suggestion that a crèche is a historically accurate representation of an event with secular significance is wholly disingenuous." The Jewish and Islamic symbols are allowed, the district says, because they have a secular dimension, but the Christian symbols are "purely religious." Robert J. Muise, who will challenge the school policy at a federal court hearing tomorrow in Brooklyn, told WorldNetDaily be believes most Americans don't see it that way. "The birth of Jesus is a historical event which serves as the basis for celebration of Christmas," Muise stated. "It's of importance for both Christians and non-Christians." Muise's Michigan-based Thomas More Law Center filed a motion to temporarily restrain the city from enforcing its ban on nativity scenes. The center asserts New York's policy "promotes the Jewish and Islamic faiths while conveying the impermissible message of disapproval of Christianity in violation of the U.S. Constitution." The Michigan group says one public-school principal issued a memo encouraging teachers to bring to school "religious symbols" that represent the Islamic and Jewish religions, but made no mention of Christianity. Jewish menorahs adorned the halls of the school as part of the authorized displays, the More Center said, but students were not allowed to make and similarly display nativity scenes A parent who wrote a letter of complaint to her son's teacher received a copy of the school's "Holiday Displays" policy in response. Kate Ahlers, communications director for New York City's law department, says schools can use things that are secular like menorahs, stars and snowflakes, but the crèche is considered religious. "There is a separation of church and state that is part of the Constitution," she claimed. "It's a clear belief that people try to follow in schools and public office, and schools are saying they adhere to that belief." The point of schools, she added, "is not to debate religion; the point of schools is to teach children." The federal civil-rights lawsuit was filed on behalf of Andrea Skoros and her two elementary-school children against the city of New York and several school officials. Skoros and her children are devout Roman Catholics. "Can Christianity be erased from a public school?" Muse asked in a statement. "Can 'Christ' be removed from Christmas? We will soon find out."

11-12-2003, 07:23 PM	#2
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,043 Images: 3	IDIOTS! __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

11-12-2003, 10:36 PM	#3
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	like they were there! and what the heck does a cresent symbolize?.....911? screw these freaks !id yank my kids from that school so fast it would make their collective heads spin! and that would be doubley painfull cause their head is so far up their azz its not even funny! B@STAGES! __________________ De oppresso liber !

11-13-2003, 12:28 AM	#4
7mmag6 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 337 Images: 1	wierd the menorah is a representation of the days of passover, if thats not religous than what is, also the crescent is the symbol of muhhamed, whats next displaying the bone from pesach? __________________ This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine

11-13-2003, 04:36 AM	#5
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,205	Same old crap - "Equal Rights" as perpetrated by the Government is neither equal or right. We'll display our Nativity scene with special pride this year. Screw the Liberals. __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

11-13-2003, 07:48 AM	#6
dhermesc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: East Central Kansas Posts: 1,762	While the school district refers to the school music program as the "Seasonal Program" my wife gets up and thanks all the parents for coming to the "CHRISTMAS PROGRAM" and then immediately begins to have the kids sing songs like Silent Night. She had never had a principal try to cross her up - yet. __________________ Liberty is for those that claim it.

11-13-2003, 10:01 AM	#8
Lenny2 Guest Posts: n/a	The menorah is allowed, and so is the crescent, so why do the christians insist on a complete nativity? Why not just the cross, as the other religions are represented. You guys don't want equality. You want complete domination.

11-13-2003, 11:07 AM	#9
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	because thats our savior ...plain and simple. why is it that christians are the ones that are always denyed their right to worship as we see fit? we have to bend and give up our rights to allow these muslims to exactly what we get penalized for. personally i say screw em! and anyone who is offended by my words or the cross i wear around my neck or my children in a restaurant praying before we eat or the prayer before a football game screw you too! __________________ De oppresso liber !

11-13-2003, 11:26 AM	#10
Lenny2 Guest Posts: n/a	why don't you answer my question: Why can't the christians display a cross, a symbol, just as the other religions are allowed? this country was not founded on the principal of christianity dominating other religions. what you want sounds like what they have in hard-line muslim countries.

11-13-2003, 11:45 AM	#11
Lord Shrike Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: MOOOOOOOOOOO land also known as Wisconsin Posts: 1,103	Actually Lenny I disagree. These symbols are being allowed in conjunction with the Winter Holliday's Which include Christmas, Ramamdan and Hanakuh. The Menora is a symbol of Hanakuh, Don't know exactly what the crescent represents but I bet it has something to do with Ramadan. A nativity scene is representive of Christmas. All the christians want is equal representation. Seems like all we here about in this country is religous and culture tolerance unless its christian religion and culture those are ok to step on evedently. __________________ Taint nuthin a 12 gauge wont solve

11-13-2003, 12:01 PM	#12
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	because christmas is the celebration of christs birth not his death. and dont people have the right to use whatever symbol they want? like why shouldnt the jews display a star of david instead of a menorra? why shouldnt muslims display sticks of dynamite strapped to a 10 year old instead of a cresent? same thing. __________________ De oppresso liber !

11-13-2003, 12:18 PM	#13
PAPA G Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somerset, kentucky Posts: 12	because Christians are intrinsincly EVIL!!! we are the cause of the worlds problems, all the atheist blame us for the worlds ill's. doncha just feel awful grinding those poor unfortunates under the Christian Heel??? doesn't the current Crusades, make you angry??? thank God the gutless so-called Christians are following like sheep. makes it easier to round them up.

11-13-2003, 12:39 PM	#15
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,043 Images: 3	Your getting a lump of coal for Christmas Lenny...... __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

11-13-2003, 12:51 PM	#16
whirlwind Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: oklahoma Posts: 3,737 Images: 1	awwwww...did lenny's mommy not ever tell him about santa clause? poor baby. you may ask someone else here about it...i just dont want to break your wittle heart __________________ De oppresso liber !

11-13-2003, 02:26 PM	#17
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,401 Images: 13	To say that Christians are asking to dominate by putting up a nativity scene compared to Jews showing a Menorrah and Muslims a crescent is one of the lambest things I've heard in a long time. The cross is the symbol of our faith, that Christ saved the world by His death on the cross and resurrection on the third day. I used to know what a Menorrah was in the old tabernacle, I think it may have been called something different. Seriously, think about it. "Christians should only be alowed to show a cross, not a whole nativity scene. Showing the whole nativity scene, which is a baby and his virgin mother and people bringing him gifts and animals in the pen is trying to dominate the holiday season." Seriously. Look at it. Religious freedom is everyone being able to display what they want from their heritage. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

11-13-2003, 02:57 PM	#18
dhermesc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: East Central Kansas Posts: 1,762	Lets put it this way, using a cross to celebrate Christmas is like designating Martin Luther King Day fall on the day he was shot. __________________ Liberty is for those that claim it.

11-13-2003, 03:14 PM	#19
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,205	How 'bout we send Lenny a big bag of Kingsford's best to roast his Sacred Cow, and the rest of us celebrate the Christmas Holidays the way we see fit? __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.