[PghDrake]

Hello - I've read over your forums and you guys really seem to know your stuff. I was hoping I could take up a short amount of your time to ask a few (ok more than a few) questions.

I'm going to be picking up My first handgun soon, likely tomorrow. I'm also going to be checking out a local shooting range, possibly joining.

After reading through these forums, checking out some info of My own and looking at the specs of different guns at various sites, I'm leaning toward the purchase of a 9mm gun - although I've heard a LOT of good things about . I'm buying it for personal protection and to take to the shooting range. I'll take a course they have on safety and use as well.

I'm considering a CZ, but I've heard a lot of really good things about the Springford Arms 1911-A1 line (although the MSRP price listed on the SA site is a little high for what I'm looking for now - possibly a used one if they have it...or will I likely find it cheaper than MSRP? I have no idea.). Also, I'm concerned that a .45 might be a little too much for a first gun. What do you guys think?

I've also looked at and liked: Beretta 9000 series (but I can't seem to find a price range for them), Taurus Mellennium (good prices on these, but looks fairly..."plain"?) and the Khar Arms KP9094A.

Obviously I'm leaning toward a smaller Polymer gun. I'm going to be getting a concealed weapons permit just so I'm covered to have it with Me if I take it somewhere. I don't plan on carrying it around a lot, but you never know what kind of trouble you can get into having a gun around and I want to make sure I know the laws well and I have the permit "just in case". I'm leaning toward Polymer because they're much lighter, and again for a first gun that needs to be a little versatile.

Legal Questions:

1) In PA can you get the gun the same day you walk into the store? I thought the Brady Bill said you had to wait 3 days for a handgun, but I've heard that's not true - at least not in PA? It would be great if I could make the purchase and test it out on the shooting range tomorrow.
2) What are the specifics of the concealed weapon laws? I already know that if I have it in the car or on My person when approached by a police officer the first thing I should do is let them know I have one. But - can you carry it in the glove compartment? I'm flying out to LA for a conference in May. Can I put it into My NON-carry-on luggage and declare it at bag check-in?
3) Is there an actual "lisence" involved? Meaning - when I pick up the gun do I receive a card or something? And I know that the concealed weapon permit takes at least a few days (from what I'm told) when I get that, will there also be a card that I need to carry on Me when I have the gun?

Ammo Questions:

1) For My purposes (personal protection and range practice) should I just stick with the full metal jacket ammo, or should I diversify between personal protection (maybe hollow points?) and target (FMJ)?
2) I assume that staying away from reloaded ammunition. Seems to Me that there is a risk (although slight) involved and I don't want to take it. Thoughts?
3) I've seen a lot of different "looking" ammuniton, all of the same calibur. What should I look for?

Range Questions:

1) The range I'm looking at is here: http://www.bullseyeranges.com/index.htm
They seem to offer more than what I've seen on other local range web sites at least. Anyone have any opinions either way about this place?
2) Their "Regular" membership is $275/year and includes discounts on just about everything (guns, pro shop, rentals, lane usage, training, etc). With this membership lane costs go from $25/hour to $10/hour (using their ammo). That seems like a reasonable enough jump right there...but is $275 worth it? I've seen other local shooting ranges that are a lot cheaper (but likely not as nice..heck one's photos looked like it was in the basement of a school with shooters standing behind folding card tables).
3) Any particular range etiquette that I should be aware of? I heard mention in a thread here about "Range Snobs"...?
4) The range sells guns at a discount to members. Do places like this often have used guns? Should I even consider a used gun as My first?

Security:
1) Hard or soft case? I've seen both for sale, but mostly soft. Thoughts for traveling between home and the range, plus occasional distance travel? I've seen that some offer a way to lock the case but again - most don't.
2) Trigger Locks. I've heard some guns come with them, most don't. I'd like a combo lock if they make them.
3) Options for a less expensive home safe? A small one, just for the gun really.

Thanks, I know I'm asking a lot but this definately seems like the place for Me to go to get straight answers.

-Drake.

[jerry]

welcome.
you should get quite a few suggestions and opinions on this one. I'll offer what I know.

there are many 9mm & 1911 style handguns out there. The ones you mentioned would not leave you undergunned. The .45 is a pretty mild low pressure shooting cartridge. With a little practice the average person can do fine with it.

Legal questions: Battle Rifle G3 will probably chime in soon. If not, feel free to PM him about PA type laws.

Ammo: Use a brand that shoots and functions well in your gun. I use hand loads for practice and high performance ammo for self defense applications. I do this because I burn approx. 2000 rounds a year, my choice of Self defense ammo would be through the roof at this rate.

Find a range your comfortable with and go a head and join. If it's nice, a couple hundred bucks isn't bad. I belong to an out door range for $30 a year. Just a place to shoot, nothing fancy. Etiquett, just be safe and set a good example.

Security: Check local laws for transportation and follow them. A hard case will afford more protection to the weapon. A soft case is fine too. There are several brands of pistol size safes out there. Ive even seen a guy use one of those Sentry fire safes people keep documents & such in.

This is a bit generic, but a start. Keep checking back, I'm sure the ideas will be expanded 'till we have you really confused

[BattleRifleG3]

Welcome, PghDrake! I've purchased a handgun last summer, and here's what I had to go through legally:
1. There is NO waiting period. An Instant Criminal Background Check is required, and most are done within minutes. Under federal law, if it is not finished in 3 days, they can just go ahead and sell you the gun, unless it comes back denied before you pick it up. Some stores won't waste their time on that and just won't sell you the gun, period, if it is not approved within a normal amount of time, but that's a private decision.
2. You fill out the same yellow form 4473 you fill out for any gun, and a white form for handgun that I believe goes to the state. I am not sure whether you still have to fill this out if you have a carry permit. I'll find out next time I buy a handgun.
3. There is no license required to own or shoot a handgun. You may carry it on private property under the owner's consent. To carry in public, you MUST have a permit to carry concealed. If you're in Allegheny County, go to the courthouse. There's a specific office for carry permits. You should get it on the spot. I believe it costs $20. If you do not have a carry permit, you may only transport it unloaded and load and fire it only at a proper range or private property.
4. California is as anti-gun a state as they get. Forget about taking your handgun there. It will require tons of paperwork that I can't help you find or do, if it's even possible. If you still want to, more power to you.

I can help with the other stuff later, but have to run now.

Again, glad to see you here, and welcome to the forums!

[BattleRifleG3]

Ok, got another moment, here's what I know on ammo:
It depends on the choice of pistol. I'd strongly recommend against using it in a Glock. Many catastrophic failures have resulted in Glocks from improperly reloaded ammo. I know of at least one such failure in an HK USP. 40 cal seems to be the worst with this problem, ie improper reloading.

Steyrs, as far as I know, are much safer to use reloads in, as they are built stronger (designed for 40 cal, not a 9mm design upgraded to 40). I've had no failures to feed with mine. I have also heard nothing bad about Springfield XD pistols.

I use all kind of ammo in mine with good results. I always clean my barrel after using lead and before using copper jacketed bullets, so that the lead doesn't build up and cause pressures to build up when the less deformable copper slides against it.

On pistol choice:
I'll praise the Steyr M40 till I drop. They also come in 357 SIG and 9mm. Excellent pistol and can be had for under $400 out the door. Better in my opinion than the more expensive Glock and Springfield. If you want locking features, it has an integrated locking system where you can turn a key and disable it. Also has a manual safety and internal safeties that prevent it from going off when dropped.

As far as where to buy:
Shop around, both in person and online. Know what's out there and don't be rash. As an option, find a dealer who has grasped the concept of a buyer arranged transfer. That means you find a gun and pay for it and have it shipped to the dealership. This avoids sales tax and avoids any outlay by the dealer. The dealer will charge a $20-50 fee for this, it's normal and part of what he does to support his business. Pay it gladly as long as it's reasonable.

Bullseye should have a good selection of new and used. I ahve never been there so I have no idea how competitive their prices are. I don't know where you are in Pittsburgh, but a couple dealerships I know of are Allegheny River Arsenal, Shooter's place (in New Brighton, but a great place and great people), and Reloader's Outlet. Avoid Hi-Tech handguns on Perry Highway. If you'd like more details about any of these, feel free to PM me.

[PghDrake]

Great info guys - thanks much!

Yes, I live in Pittsburgh, not far from downtown actually. I may just run down to the courthouse tomorrow morning and try to obtain the carry permit. From there, go out to Bullseye and see what they have and what the facilities are like.

As far as Gloks go, I really am not considering them. I've seen a lot of bad publicity on them. I'm willing to pay an extra $50 or $100 for a more reliable gun.

I'm also not going to get into reloaded ammo - at least not for now. I'm a little too uncomfortable with the idea but I'll probably get over it.

Do you have any advice on other local shooting ranges and/or clubs? Indoor sounds best to Me, with all the weather issues we have here (hell it rains more here than it does in London, and I just don't find the idea of standing in the cold shooting at snow-covered targets exciting).

What about joining the NRA? Beneficial for someone like Me?

Thanks again,

-Drake.

[toolman]

Welcome aboard PghDrake, as I live in Tx., I can't really help you on the laws in Pa. but I can make a few suggestions. Check with a few shooting ranges in your area as a lot of them offer various handguns for rent and you can find one you like and that fits you right before you shell out big bucks for one. If money is a concern as it is for almost everyone except Oxford and PAPAG , you might take a look at the EAA Witness line @ www.eaacorp.com . Most ranges can also give you advice about the concealed carry laws. In Tx., if you have a concealed carry permit, you can purchase any legal long or handgun without all of the background checks, waiting period, etc. so if you're planning to get one it might be worth your time to get it before you purchase your gun. There are a couple of websites that detail the various carry laws in each state-try a GOOGLE search for concealed carry laws. Flying with a firearm isn't all that hard as long as it's unloaded and in a locked hard case. The ammo has to be in it's original box and is usually limited to an 11 lb weight limit. It goes without saying that they both have to be declared and placed in your checked luggage. Here in Tx. if you are stopped in your vehicle, it is a real good idea to present your CCW permit along with your drivers' license and inform the officer that you are carrying AFTER you give him your permit as they get a little nervous when they walk up to a car and the driver says "I've got a gun" . Given the scenario you've presented, I would find a place that provides a weapon for your concealed carry training and get your CCW permit. Then start trying out different guns and ranges until you find what you're looking for. Then you'll need to find a carry rig that suits your purposes. As far as cases, if you are planning to fly with your CCW very much at all, I would spring for the strongest hard case you can find and get a soft case for general use. For self-defense, hollow-point or soft-point ammo is the way to go and save the cheaper FMJ ammo for the range. I'm not real familiar with some of the guns mentioned but my son has a Taurus Millenium in .40 S&W that is a really good little gun but the heavy trigger makes precision shooting a real chore. I personally prefer a traditional double action like the Browning Hi-Power, CZ, EAA, etc. You can go to www.GalleryofGuns.com for ballpark pricing and comparison of different makes and models. Don't be scared off by the MSRP of a lot of these as the actual retail on many will be a lot lower if you find the right dealer. If you decide on a used gun, have it checked out by a good gunsmith or get a return policy in writing before buying it. Good Luck and again, Welcome!

[BattleRifleG3]

If you want to carry, size is a concern. So is shape. And both have everything to do with your size and shape, and your choice of clothing.

I have never found a better balance of energy/caliber (40), capacity (10), and size (4" barrel within a barely mid-size profile) than a Steyr M40. They look wierd but work and feel great. I can't think of a gun that has every advantage it does for the same money. I can't think of a better one, though I can think of many as good that cost more. Dealer cost on a Steyr is $300. Tack on $50 and you have a likely retail price, or what it would be after fees and shipping.

Here's how some others compare:
Springfield XD: Just as good construction and reliability, all the same features except it is larger with the same length barrel. It also has no manual safety. It'll probably cost in the $400 range
HK USP: Has external hammer, those who have them say they're just as smooth. They're available in 45 ACP as well as 9mm. Will probably cost from $500 to well over $600 or even higher.

Those are the better polymer framed pistols out there. Avoid the S&W Sigma. You'll have to ask others about the polymer framed 1911s and CZ-75 type pistols.

If you're choosing a carry piece, you should probably settle on a few important factors to you. If you don't have much experience, rent a few at a range and compare them, then come back here and tell us what you found particularly positive and negative about each. Talk to people at the range too, never pass up an opportunity to look at something for free, but remember that they are selling this stuff so take everything with a grain of salt.

[NRAJOE]

Every gun owner should be in the NRA...thats a given. :right: