While cleaning out the primer pockets on some cleaned .45 ACP cases I noticed several cases had a much smaller primer pocket than is normal on the cases.
Everything else about the cases are the same.
I will attach a photo but, in short, the cases with smaller primer pockets are all marked 'WIN NT' on the upper arc and '45 AUTO' on the lower arc.
I found out that a standard primer fits the pocket but I'm wondering if I should even attempt it since I'm not sure what effect a lower flash primer will have on the detonation of the powder and in relationship to powder burn/pressure ratios.
I realize the pic is a little dark but I think you can clearly see the difference between the two primer pockets.
Has anyone ever seen the primer pocket difference before?
What do the initials 'WIN NT' mean?
Any other thoughts on the issue?
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doesn't look like it would fit.
i have never noticed any of mine to be that way, i'll have to look at some old brass, i bought all new remington brass last year before my wreck, and have as yet to toss the old stuff so i'll have to look but they where all mixed head stamps so maybe i have some.
where did you get them, it allmost looks like winchester national match or target.
you say the standard large pistol primer fits in the case?
i don't know what your load is but if you are on the edge of being "HOT" i would second think this case. it might get you better flash point and increase your presures like you said.
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the 45 cases with the smaller primer pocket come from winchesters win/clean ammo. while im pretty certain that it would be safe to load them with a standard small pistol primer, i would just toss them out as 45 brass aint that hard to come by.
There must be a reason. Someone like Winchester would not produce something like this unless it followed SAMMI specifications.
Shaun yer in the reloading business, what gives?
Scott who knows what Win is doing half the time -- I only use Win brass in certain rifle loads for pistol loads we only use Starline's products based on testing results and higher quality components. I am trying to work a deal with my distibutor to get the Win 7.62x54R brass so we can start competing with Winchester for match rounds but in Pistol Starline is the best.
My guess is that they tried something for cost cutting measures or it was designed that way for a purpose such as a reduced frangible load. The other possibility that could have happened was during the case manufacture stage was that they may have failed to change the dies for the primer pocket when they were setting up a run -- If it were me I might use them with a small primer but I would use a magnum primer to make sure all the powder burns. The primer is only there for powder ignition obviously a larger primer provides a greater ignition source than a small primer would and it would still be within spec for SAAMI.
One tip for those of you reloading is how to make light magnum's (IE.... Speer) Use a magnum primer in your rifle rounds I have found they actually cause the powder to burn efficiently producing a slightly greater velocity.
A true magnum round uses a greater amount of powder so you will use the normal load with the better primer. The magnum primer in a magnum load is to insure that all the powder is burned rather than blown out the barrel.
Never been happy with Winchester as I relate the story below.
Before deer season I like to shoot the guns that I am going to be using in the woods and check the sights. Picked up a box of Win. 240 gr. JHP ammo in 44 Mag. Figured to burn the cheap stuff for practice and save the good stuff for hunting.
Loading up the Super Redhawk the first shot was OK the second sound unusally loud and the third sounded louder and the recoil was more. So I swing the cylinder out and give the primers a look and everything looks fine. The fourth shot was OK and the fifth was loud and heavy.
I then stopped and unload the gun. Picking up the brass I notice three casing that are split from mouth to rim. I did send the stuff back and got certificates for new ammo and a letter stating that their annealing process was off on that lot#.
I'm glan it happened in a Ruger, don't know what would of happened if it was another manufacturer. Just don't trust stuff that doesn't stay together.
Anyone else have problems with factory ammo? Had a Federal slug with no primer once. Shucked it out and ended up shooting the deer with the second shot. Don't shoot Federal slugs anymore. I have also had the high brass on Winchester steel shotshells split after one season of sitting the box unopened. Won't use Win. shotshells.
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I just picked up a bunch of .45ACP brass at the range today, since I'm starting back into reloading. I noticed a few had the small primers. I had been putting the cases into the foam trays, so I pulled the odd cases out and replaced 'em with the proper big primer cases. I chucked them - I wanna keep things simple - small primers in my .38's and big primers in my .45's.
My Winchester ammo horror story - a few years ago, I bought a box of Winny 115 grain 9mm BEB loads for my Maadi Cadet pistol. Two cases both went "fffft", with a small bit of smoke - no BANG! I racked and ejected them.
Both had half the primer cup gone!
A third round in the box had it's primer loaded sideways. I never bought another box of Winchester til recently. The newer loads Chronied 150 FPS slower than the Rem/UMC and weren't as accurate.
I've sworn off Winchester pistol ammo.
I do like their rimfire ammo though.
this is a new case that there are far and few load data sheets for. the win nt case is a "non-toxic" round. You know have to get green. there is no reload info readily avalible on them yet . But dont get rid of those cases hang on to them some time in the future these will prolly be the way.
Besides the Winchester WinNT cases, I am now also finding FederalNT - same small primer in .45ACP. The Federals also exhibit smaller than normal primer flash holes - my decapper pin pops up! I'm trashing them - like i said five years ago - "Keep it simple".....
While cleaning out the primer pockets on some cleaned .45 ACP cases I noticed several cases had a much smaller primer pocket than is normal on the cases.
Everything else about the cases are the same.
I will attach a photo but, in short, the cases with smaller primer pockets are all marked 'WIN NT' on the upper arc and '45 AUTO' on the lower arc.
I found out that a standard primer fits the pocket but I'm wondering if I should even attempt it since I'm not sure what effect a lower flash primer will have on the detonation of the powder and in relationship to powder burn/pressure ratios.
I realize the pic is a little dark but I think you can clearly see the difference between the two primer pockets.
Has anyone ever seen the primer pocket difference before?
So the NT is for a non-toxic powder? I.E. it has a safer "exhaust" than the standard powders?
Does this mean we're looking at a day when we'll need to put catalytic converters on our guns to keep the powder combustion products clean enough to satisfy EPA?
I once bought a box of Smith and Wesson .357 loads that had no powder in them. I shot one with just a little ppp sound, the bullet didn't even get out of the case. I weighed the rest for comparison and verified it. The next show I traded them for two boxes of Remington loads. I wonder if they're valuable today as collectibles?
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Is it the propellant that's non-toxic or did it represent that the projectile was, at the time of factory loading that is, non-toxic? Another words, green or politically correct ammunition. lol
To be honest, after reading some of the posts at the link provided in post #14, this one I copy and pasted/quoted below, is about the best reason one should either just throw them out or at the very least, hold onto them until one gets enough to do a run with just them; Like say when one gets about a few hundred or so before even bothering with them. Because as I said, I think this is the perfect reason WHY NOT TO DEAL WITH THEM UNTIL THEN.
"Khornet
January 4th, 2006, 03:04 PM
with NT brass. I pitch every one I find, after cursing it. Last thing I want to have while loading is different components on the bench at one time.
That said, the larger flash hole is not a problem. There is another brand of NT ammo, or maybe it was the earlier Win Clean, that had a large flash hole but normal large primer (in .45) which was declared by the maker to require no change in loading practices'
Best loading practice for NT is to load into the trash after flattening".
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Last edited by GlockMeister; 03-30-2009 at 02:54 PM.
I used to use Win NT's to convert to .400 Cor-Bon since regular .400 Cor-Bon ammo uses small pistol primers. That 400 Cor-Bon barrel never did work right in my .45, so I sold the barrel and abandoned the experiment. Now I just pitch any NT cases.
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this is a new case that there are far and few load data sheets for. the win nt case is a "non-toxic" round. You know have to get green. there is no reload info readily avalible on them yet . But dont get rid of those cases hang on to them some time in the future these will prolly be the way.
You are exactly right kuffs I buy this brass from my cop freinds that shoot at an indoor range. I use a magnum primer and load it at the minimum load by my lyman book . Seems to work well .
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Speer makes small primer .45's too. I just keep them all separate from the rest, and load them like I normally would. Those rounds are the ones I use for plinking at places where it's too hard or impossible to recover my brass, like heavy vegetation, water, snow, etc.
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now if that don't take the cake..... the tree huggers got em producing eco-friendly "safe" "green" ammo thats "non toxic". ammo's only toxic if your at the wrong end of it.
Teach
