[SilverRun]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rufus Rhastus J

That's okay by me, what is the hold up?

The hold up is the bleeding heart liberals. Trouble is they are not the ones bleeding. Our brave troops are. We need to take off the gloves, tell the rest of the world to join in or stay out of the way, and finish this mess. Until the US drops the politically correct war we are fighting, no we won't win the war. Yes, we will win every battle, but not the war.

Quote:       Originally Posted by Dennis

I think the best cure for this type of situation is a thing we invented a while back called TOTAL WAR! see it will be quick and over carpet bombing and smashing ALL who oppose us. the problem we have is that so many of us have been programed a reverence for human life. except when we dont.................? its weird there are so many that can not accept leadership. no matter what the situation is. rebelling is a national sport here. our lack of unity is concidered by many to be a great asset. I think the Hippie Anti War Protesters cultivate this just to keep the united states from ruling the world. We can not do anything to the earth with out an enviromental impact statement. even then they will protest. We limit ourselves. the War in Iraq is over and the situation there is getting better The newsies dont want this, So they report everything so it looks like the country has gone to hell in a hand basket. this of course prompts the insurgents to have big showy incedents and the circle continues. the whole thing has degenerated in to a made for TV war. and the hippie anti war protesters just love it there are so many younger ones that missed the vietnam war and now they have a war they can protest Boy oh boy are they happy. its all turned in to a big jack off session. we need to seal the borders, thats SEAL THE BORDERS. patrol with aircraft and anything moving gets blasted period. no questions no pictures no nothing. Say it and MEAN IT make it happen. Then Clean out the towns. Mosul, give everyone 24 hours to leave as everyone that passes through the check points remove every man between the ages of 10 and 70 ID them photograph them finger print and Dna,keep them in a holding camp then level the town. same with flaujeha (sp) give the people 12 hours to leave, screen the people let the women and kids and old people go, and level the town. smash it flat leave not one stone upon another. Let the Iraqis (with our help) filter the war fighting age men, photograph, finger print, Dna sample, hell even indoctrinate them. see how that goes. Keep all known bad guys. We will only have to do that once or twice and you would be amazed at how fast the insurgents would dissapear. they could have elections and then we would go home. we have been so soft while fighting this war that they do not respect us which is the reason they started this whole thing in the first place. We will be in a continous warfare situation untill we do something like this.

Great idea. I'm sure they would just lay down and quit - just like americans would under the same circumstances... I mean look how many thousands of them we have killed and they continue to...grow! Do you seee a pattern? Didn't think so...

Think about it yourself - what would you do to kick Iraqis out of our country if they were occupying us? Would you fight back? Would you lay down and quit if they had a real aggressive extermination policy where they wanted to photograph, fingerprint, and take a DNA sample from YOU??? Or would it make you fight harder???

Quote:       Originally Posted by Lenny2

Think about it yourself - what would you do to kick Iraqis out of our country if they were occupying us? Would you fight back? Would you lay down and quit if they had a real aggressive extermination policy where they wanted to photograph, fingerprint, and take a DNA sample from YOU??? Or would it make you fight harder???

extermination policy L2 ? put down the pipe and back away..I can understand the desire to oust foreigners from occupying your homeland but in this case it ain't going to happen

Quote:       Originally Posted by Lenny2

I mean look how many thousands of them we have killed and they continue to...grow! Do you seee a pattern? Didn't think so...

you've been alluding that if all our military personnel were called back home we would have nothing more to worry about from them or other Muslims in the future..such is not the case..nor is it a viable option..if we leave before they have a democratic government we leave behind a power vaccuum that will be filled with the next charismatic weird beard

I have a few points I would like to make...

1: Islam is not the enemy. There are parts of the Quran that could be interpreted as promoting violence and the extremist attitudes the terrorists hold, just as there are parts of the Christian Bible that could be interpreted to promote violence. Al Qaida and other Islamic Jihad groups are small sects of Islam, kind of like Branch Davidians are to Christianity. The fact is that the vast majority of Muslims are non-violent people who don't want to start wars, they just want to live their lives like anybody else. The groups that carry out terrorist attacks are cults, plain and simple, and if we don't want to go to war with a billion innocent muslims, we need to put the blame on the people responsible, not just people who look like the people responsible. Whenever we punish innocent Muslims for the crimes of a few cults, we only encourage more people to join the Jihad against (as someone would see it if we murdered his family) the evil Americans.

2: Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks on September 11. There is not a single shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. Almost all of the hijackers were Saudis. Iraq has no WMDs to sell to terrorists, as the Bush administration suggests, and in short by invading Iraq we have done nothing to combat terrorism. We are there now, and we have started a civil war, so it is our duty to help bring peace and stability to the country, but if we had not rushed to war so quickly we would have far more resources to spend hunting the real terrorists.

3: Abstaining from carpet bombing an entire country isn't politically correct, it is simple human decency. It's supposed to be what makes us different from the terrorists. Besides, wiping out all of Iraq would most likely send the world into WW3, and no-one in their right mind wants that.

4: Certain parts of the so called US Patriot Act (should be called the Unpatriotic Act) are useful, such as the parts establishing better communication betwen the FBI and the CIA, but parts of it take away fundamental constitutional rights, such as the right to be free from unlawful search and seisure. If we let the terrorists change our constitution, we let them win.

In my humble opinion, the fight against terrorism can't be won by bombing innocent civilians, we are fighting a different kind of war against organizations spread throughout almost every nation on the globe. Maybe there is a head we can cut off, so to speak, but until we find it our best bet is probably to get other countries involved in finding and eliminating terrorist cells, Going after the cells ourselves when we find them, improving intelligence so we can actually find them, and perhaps some good old fasioned undercover sabotage.

That's my opinion, at least. Feel free to prove me wrong if you can, but if anyone wants to call me unpatriotic, a wimp, unamerican, a bleeding heart liberal or any other baseless insult, please send me an e-mail, I will give you my address and you can tell me face-to-face.

[whirlwind]

well if this country was being ran by a guy who had already gassed his own people,allowed his son to grab any under age female child off the street to settle his sick minds perversions,and who alsotortured his own olympic team members for not winning gold medals,and employed civil employees with the job discription of "rapist" id be very willing to allow another country to come occupy my homeland...very willing indeed

[whirlwind]

granted iraq didnt have wmd's. but all intell that was shown to congress and the president said they did have them. that was the reason to go into iraq not terrorism. but going was also an indirect attack on terrorism due to the fact that iraq had served as a training site for many terrorist groups,and the fact that iraq paid a bounty to the families of suicide bombers in israel. yes, we went to war over bad intell. but good things have come from it. such as lybia scraping their n.b.c. programs. right now their nuclear materials set in a warehouse in tennessee. and another thing that no one seems to see...how do you fight terrorists that are scattered all over the world? well it would be good to have them funnell into one place such as iraq (which they are now) .and they are being killed. and saddam was not totally innocent. ive seen documentaries on the history chanel about theories that some have that saddam was responsible for twa 800,and also that he had some hand in the oklahoma city bombing (a place where i lost a friend of mine that worked in the army sect of in processing) there are alot of folks on all sides of the political spectrum that believe they know better than whoever is in power. i am not one of them. i know that they have intell that will never be shared with the general population of the united states. so i may have doubts about the moves our government makes (as i did when klinton sent missles to afghanistan) and when he sent troops to cosovo.but i did not slander or critisize his actions for the simple fact that when i was in the army i learned one thing if nothing else...the government has nine zillion angles to any given situation that we never hear about.

Why Does Islam Hate America?
Patrick J. Buchanan

March 5 2002

Despite Sen. Trent Lott's demand that we all fall in behind the commander in chief, the Senate has a constitutional duty to debate the wider war the president has begun to pursue.

Far from being unpatriotic, such a debate is the quintessence of patriotism. In World War II, patriots argued the wisdom of FDR's "Europe-First" policy that left our men on Corregidor to the mercy of the butchers of Bataan. And U.S. generals wrangled ferociously with Churchill over where and when to invade Hitler's "Fortress Europe."

We are a republic – not an empire – and republics do not go to war until all the elected leaders of the people, not just one, have decided on war. Moreover, since the "Axis of Evil" speech, the White House has moved far beyond the mandate of Congress to destroy the "evil-doers" of Sept. 11 and their accomplices.

In that speech, the president threatened war on Iran, Iraq and North Korea if they did not renounce weapons of mass destruction. Since that speech has come word the United States is building bases in four ex-Soviet republics in Central Asia and deploying 200 military advisers in Georgia. Last week, we learned NATO will be expanded to include three Baltic states. If Russian nationalists are going berserk, who can blame them? How would we react if Russian military advisers began turning up in Tijuana?

Why are we humiliating Russia when a first priority of U.S. foreign policy is to keep Russian atomic weapons out of the hands of terrorists and Mother Russia out of an embrace with China? What is there in President Shevardnadze's Georgia that is worth the risk of antagonizing a nuclear superpower like Russia? Congress cannot ignore these issues.

And now, even as our War Party is cawing for Phase II attacks on Baghdad, we learn that Phase I is not over. U.S. troops even now are clashing with Taliban and al-Qaida forces in the largest land battle yet. And before we begin the March to Baghdad, second thoughts may be in order in light of the latest Gallup Poll of the Arab and Islamic world. Apparently, America – once seen as a benefactor and friend – is despised from Morocco to Indonesia.

By 61 percent to18 percent, Pakistanis, Lebanese, Kuwaitis, Iranians and Turks do not believe our word that Arabs were responsible for Sept. 11. Only 9 percent of the Arab and Islamic world believes the U.S. war in Afghanistan is morally justified. Only 11 percent likes President Bush. By 55 percent to 22 percent, the world's 1 billion Muslims hold unfavorable opinions of the United States. The most negative views are held by Pakistanis (68 percent to 9 percent) and Jordanians (62 percent to 22 percent). Among Saudis, 16 percent has a favorable opinion of America, but 64 percent views us negatively, which is almost identical to the unfavorable opinion of America held by Iranians.

Who are we defending over there? Who are we fighting for? And why do hundreds of millions of Arabs and Muslims dislike and even detest us?

According to Gallup Poll editor Frank Newport, "These respondents have a deep-seated disrespect for what they see as the undisciplined and immoral lifestyles of people in Western nations." They see America as "ruthless, aggressive, conceited, arrogant, easily provoked, biased." In short, Arabs and Muslims see us as the new Rome – a ruthless and godless empire – not as a Godly republic or a shining city on a hill.

Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak is now warning that if we attack Iraq, and the Arab world sees Arab civilians again dying under American bombs, the entire Middle East could explode. And Mubarak is a friend who backed President Bush's father in Desert Storm.

In the hubris and triumphalism of this war capital, in the wake of our victory in Afghanistan and coming "cakewalk" over Iraq, many will ignore these polls. After all, who cares what Arabs think? But if we are going to war, we need to know the mind of those we expect to conquer and convert, lest we find U.S. troops receiving the same reception in Baghdad as Israeli troops get in Ramallah.

There is another reason Congress must say "yea" or "nay" to a wider war. This weekend, the press reported on the failed efforts of al-Qaida to acquire an atomic bomb – for possible use in New York City. As America is the probable target of terrorists anxious to acquire such weapons, Congress must answer two questions:

What is there in the Islamic world worth risking having such a bomb exploded in our capital? And is the better way to avoid that horror plunging in ever more deeply into that world that hates us – or getting out altogether?

If Islamic peoples detest America, why not let them discover democracy in their own time, rather than trying to convert them with thermobaric bombs and cruise missiles?

"Why do they hate us?" asked President Bush in his speech to Congress last Thursday night. It is a question that has ached in America's heart for the past two weeks. Why did those 19 men choose to wreck the icons of US military and economic power?
Most Arabs and Muslims knew the answer, even before they considered who was responsible. Retired Pakistani Air Commodore Sajad Haider - a friend of the US - understood why. Radical Egyptian-born cleric and US enemy Abu Hamza al-Masri understood. And Jimmy Nur Zamzamy, a devout Muslim and advertising executive in Indonesia, understood.

They all understood that this assault was more precisely targeted than an attack on "civilization." First and foremost, it was an attack on America.

In the United States, military planners are deciding how to exact retribution. To many people in the Middle East and beyond, where US policy has bred widespread anti-Americanism, the carnage of Sept. 11 was retribution.

And voices across the Muslim world are warning that if America doesn't wage its war on terrorism in a way that the Muslim world considers just, America risks creating even greater animosity.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0927/p1s1-wogi.html

By Ben Johnson
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 25, 2003


At last weekend’s "peace" protests, tens of thousands called down curses upon George W. Bush and blessings on Saddam Hussein. The organizers and participants in these international rallies clearly were not interested in peace; they hope to see America’s enemies prevail. In their timely book The Hate America Left, editors David Horowitz and Jamie Glazov of FrontPage Magazine expose the seditious connections and unseemly goals of the new generation of anti-Americans.

Even during the historic tragedies of September 11, the terrorists’ sympathizers did not quell their vitriolic attacks on the fabric of America. At our nation’s most vulnerable moment, leftist idol Noam Chomsky used campus speaking engagements to denounce, not the hijackers, but the United States as the "world’s biggest terrorist state." Although the country was under attack, a leftist fifth column propelled by anti-American zeal continued its assault the underpinnings of our nation. Al Qaeda’s attack roused a complacent American public to the external threat of radical Islamic terrorism. In The Hate America Left, Horowitz and Glazov seek to alert their readers to another enemy: the network of fundraisers, apologists, protesters, intellectual enablers, Stalinists and fellow-travelers that comprise the domestic front in the War against Terrorism.

This compilation of essays, many of which first appeared on FrontPage Magazine, exposes the broad contours of the leftist fifth column in America. To expose the domestic Left, the authors first paint a vivid picture of the external threat we face. David Horowitz’ introductory essay conveys the gravity of the Left’s betrayal in their support of suicide bombers. Although leftist cant ascribes Islamist bloodlust to American and Israeli "imperialism," Horowitz makes clear that radical Islam’s totalitarian ideology spurs on teenagers to become cannon fodder in a war against the West. That driving mania is reflected in the glee expressed by the mother of a suicide bomber: "I asked Allah to give me 10 [Israelis] for Muhammad, and Allah granted my request and Muhammad made his dream come true, killing 10 Israeli settlers and soldiers." These are the hate-filled extremists the Left considers "victims."


And the Left has exploited every opportunity to benefit these victims. Horowitz and Glazov dedicate one full section of the book to the legal establishment’s support of terrorists. Particularly compelling is the story of Lynne Stewart, a member of William Kunstler’s Center for Constitutional Rights, who proudly provided legal counsel to Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman. Rahman is the blind cleric convicted of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. In Stewart’s rush to be helpful, she apparently passed on information from Rahman to the Islamic Group, an al-Qaeda-linked terrorist organization responsible for the ‘93 bombing. Stewart has also voiced support for violence. She defines "direct violence" as "violence directed at the institutions which perpetuate capitalism, racism and sexism, and the people who are appointed guardians of those institutions." Attorney General Ashcroft indicted Stewart last April for providing "material support" to terrorists. However, as the book documents, her ideological counterparts at CCR, the National Lawyers Guild and the ACLU voice their hatred of America in similar language.

Other radical groups are not as honest, dressing up their hatred for America in the cloak of peace. Another section of The Hate America Left exposes "The ‘Peace’ Fifth Column." Edward Immler’s article, "Tracking Down a Fifth Column Front," found that ANSWER, the group responsible for the national "peace" demonstrations, is a front for the Stalinist Workers World Party. Other Communist fronts operating in the ANSWER office include the U.S. Out of Korea Committee, Peace for Cuba, Iraq Sanctions Challenge, the Coalition to Stop U.S. Intervention in the Mideast and an organization dedicated to freeing convicted cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal. Immler makes a terrifying and all-too-plausible case that Iraqis (and others) may be funding International ANSWER’s advocacy efforts.

The rest of this provocative and unsettling book will likewise spur the reader to indignation and action. One entire section explores the predictable temperament of college professors toward the United States, the military and Western civilization in general. Additional chapters describe Louis Farrakhan’s links to Mideast terrorists, the Marxist-Wahabi alliance, the legal status of detainees and the Communist politics of a gay community leader. Jamie Glazov’s contribution, a symposium on anti-Americanism with four distinguished scholars, makes an engrossing read. The authors name names, expose unsavory connections and lay bare the true agenda of the "anti-anti-terrorists." The facts about these subversives, many of which are unique to this collection, have never been laid out so effectively or persuasively.

Horowitz and Glazov also do conservatives a favor with their precise selection of targets. There are no sweeping accusations of any one political party. Those condemned by Horowitz would not feel comfortable around Harry Truman, Henry "Scoop" Jackson or even the young Al Gore, who once castigated his party for fashioning its foreign policy around "retreat, complacency and doubt." Those groups and individuals profiled in this compilation clearly merit the title The Hate America Left. Unfortunately, that group is large enough without exaggeration. And it only appears to be gaining political power.

This useful information is a must-read for citizens who love their country, whatever their political persuasion. For conservatives, this book marks a battle plan against the enemies of democratic capitalism and freedom of conscience. For well-intentioned liberals, it represents an indictment of their laxity and a call to purge the Left of a pernicious influence. And for the broad mass of centrist Americans, The Hate America Left contains the clearest call-to-arms ever issued to defend the Republic from all her enemies, foreign and domestic.

NOTE:

The Hate America Left may be ordered online here at FrontPage Magazine's bookstore, or by telephone. Call 1-866-668-5338. The price is $10, plus $5 Shipping and Handling.

like it or not..to pull out of Iraq now would be the height of stupidity..I don't care if they ever had any weapons of mass destruction..whats done is done..we can't go back in time and undo it..to continue to argue about it is foolish..it's on from here until Judgment Day

now how do we win it ?

[whirlwind]

one of these days i gotta learn how to cut and paste!

[NRAJOE]

Quote:       Originally Posted by whirlwind

one of these days i gotta learn how to cut and paste!

Should of learnt that in Kindergarten...dolt!

[NRAJOE]

How To Copy and Paste:
Take your mouse, and place your cursor at the beginning of the text in the box below, then click and hold the left mouse button, while pulling your mouse over the text. This should highlight the text. Now release the left mouse button. Now, with the cursor over the highlighted text, right click the mouse for options, and select 'copy'. Now over the empty box below, right click your mouse again, and select 'paste' and you will have copied and pasted the text. :-)


http://www.webmasternow.com/copyandpaste.html

Although I think it was a grave mistake to go there in the first place, I agree that if we just pulled out now Iraq would fall into complete anarchy, and would probably wind up being run by terrorists or a fascist worse than Saddam. But that doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible mistake. I don't know what can be done about it, I would hate to see another thousand young Americans die, but unfortunately, that may be what it takes.

I do know one thing though, we need to clean out our own attic before we can clean out theirs. Regime change starts at home, a mistake as collossal as the decision to rush into this war is something that should not be forgiven easily. Any president who could so thoughtlessly send so many American soldiers to their deaths based on such flimsy evidence is not fit to be the president of the United States.

So I guess it's Kerry by default. There's a lot of people I would rather have as president, but as usual the two-party system has come down to the lesser of two evils. It is very important to me to get that lying, warmongering little monkeyrat and his goons out of the white house. Besides the Iraq catastrophy he has violated three amendments from the bill of rights (by my count, amendments # 1, 4 and 6), so that chump has got to go. No third party votes in the president box on my ballot this year.

This is the part where I curse the electoral college and the Democrian-Republicrat monopoly. Oh well, at least third party and independant votes still sort of count in state and local elections.

[11c_infantry]

Some people would have us attempt loving the enemy to death. This hands across America approach will lose the war for us. While we're busy hugging and kissing, and giving a big circle jerk in the name of tolerance and diversity, the enemy will be busy killing us. No thanks...you wanna love Islam....move to the middle east. I'm sure they'll welcome you're kindness and tolerance......with a raised sword.

[NRAJOE]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Packing4Peace

Although I think it was a grave mistake to go there in the first place, I agree that if we just pulled out now Iraq would fall into complete anarchy, and would probably wind up being run by terrorists or a fascist worse than Saddam. But that doesn't change the fact that it was a terrible mistake. I don't know what can be done about it, I would hate to see another thousand young Americans die, but unfortunately, that may be what it takes. I do know one thing though, we need to clean out our own attic before we can clean out theirs. Regime change starts at home, a mistake as collossal as the decision to rush into this war is something that should not be forgiven easily. Any president who could so thoughtlessly send so many American soldiers to their deaths based on such flimsy evidence is not fit to be the president of the United States. So I guess it's Kerry by default. There's a lot of people I would rather have as president, but as usual the two-party system has come down to the lesser of two evils. It is very important to me to get that lying, warmongering little monkeyrat and his goons out of the white house. Besides the Iraq catastrophy he has violated three amendments from the bill of rights (by my count, amendments # 1, 4 and 6), so that chump has got to go. No third party votes in the president box on my ballot this year. This is the part where I curse the electoral college and the Democrian-Republicrat monopoly. Oh well, at least third party and independant votes still sort of count in state and local elections.

Need to flush your headgear out slick...Bush gave Saddam every chance to let us fully inspect his country...Saddam chose War...Bush did not lie, nor did he rush in...you think Kerry's so great? Turn your guns in when you vote for him....fool.

Quote:       Originally Posted by Logansdad

you've been alluding that if all our military personnel were called back home we would have nothing more to worry about from them or other Muslims in the future..such is not the case..nor is it a viable option..if we leave before they have a democratic government we leave behind a power vaccuum that will be filled with the next charismatic weird beard

Oh, so a democratically elected government will fix the problem? I don't think so.

I don't know what the solution is, but I can tell what it is not: turning it into a ghetto (I'm talking Nazi germany style, not Detroit style). That breeds terrorism, not extinguish it.

Quote:       Originally Posted by 11c_infantry

Some people would have us attempt loving the enemy to death. This hands across America approach will lose the war for us. While we're busy hugging and kissing, and giving a big circle jerk in the name of tolerance and diversity, the enemy will be busy killing us. No thanks...you wanna love Islam....move to the middle east. I'm sure they'll welcome you're kindness and tolerance......with a raised sword.

Wake up sleepyhead - the enemy IS killing us. I never said I love Islam; I'm just not stupid enough to believe that they're all out to get us. Do you remember that little country called Indonesia??? The one YOU called "secular and tolerant"... Stings doesn't it...

Quote:       Originally Posted by NRAJOE

Need to flush your headgear out slick...Bush gave Saddam every chance to let us fully inspect his country...Saddam chose War...Bush did not lie, nor did he rush in...you think Kerry's so great? Turn your guns in when you vote for him....fool.

Bush DID LIE. He told us that Hussein had WMD and was a threat. Every single investigation into that has lead to the same answer: he had no WMD and was not a threat. If that is not a lie in your world, maybe you should come back to earth once in a while.

I don't think Kerry is great, and I am not going to vote for him...sheep.