Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
The high cost of free speech...
I was reading the paper yesterday, Tampa tribune for 2/26, and saw an article I thought deserved comment. To qualify before the drum beat starts, dispite this gentleman's views on politics and such, basically, he has been imprisioned for speaking his thoughts and opinions. While in Canada, he has been kept in solitary and, during his trial, much of the so called "evidence" was heard in secret (what do they need to hide?). Here is an article i picked up for your thoughtful consideration. I mention this for several reasons but, mostly because of the patriot act rulings and laws applyed to this case. So, before you start waving you star of david flags, and calling me names, understand i offer this for discussion only! This man appears to be guilty of nothing more than speaking his mind. For that he has endured many years of JAIL!!!!
Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel can be deported immediately as a danger to Canadian security, a Federal Court of Canada judge has ruled.
In a searing 64-page ruling yesterday, Mr. Justice Pierre Blais labelled Mr. Zundel a racist hypocrite who has nurtured a pacifist image to conceal his support of right-wing extremism and his global propagation of anti-Semitic material. "Mr. Zundel seems to thrive in this troubled sea, surrounded by ambiguity and hypocrisy," the judge said.
"Mr. Zundel's activities are not only a threat to Canada's national security, but also a threat to the international community of nations."
No appeal is possible under the controversial national security certificate procedure, meaning Mr. Zundel could be on a plane to his native Germany at any time.
Judge Blais said Mr. Zundel's Toronto home was "a revolving door" for every member of a global white supremacist movement.
He said Mr. Zundel deftly exploited Canada as a "safe haven," and used his skills as a communicator and Internet pioneer to give new life to the white supremacy movement.
Mr. Zundel, 65, has been living in solitary confinement in a Toronto jail since his arrest on May 1, 2003. In keeping with the security certificate process, much of the evidence at his hearing was heard in secret.
Defence counsel Peter Lindsay said that he plans two last-ditch attempts to obtain a stay of the deportation order -- both based on the fact that the Supreme Court of Canada has not yet decided whether to hear a pair of security-certificate-related cases.
"Mr. Zundel expected this result," Mr. Lindsay said last night after visiting his client in jail. "He didn't think he was going to get a fair shake."
"He could be gone tomorrow," said Bernie Farber, executive director of the Canadian Jewish Congress. "All I know is, it's going to be quick. Canadians can breathe easier now."
Judge Blais needed only to decide whether the security certificate was "reasonable." He went much further, stating that the secret information erased any doubt of Mr. Zundel's status as a global power who has hobnobbed with a who's who of the racist right.
He described Mr. Zundel as a man who, inspired by Hitler and latter-day Nazi sympathizers, set out to support the neo-Nazi movement in dozens of countries. "He also tried, by all means possible, to develop and maintain a global network of groups that have an interest in the same right-wing, extremist, neo-Nazi mindset," Judge Blais said.
Mr. Zundel left his Toronto residence, known as the "Carlton Street bunker," several years ago, and moved to Tennessee to live with his new wife. However, he was seized and returned to Canada by U.S. authorities for violating an immigration requirement.
Mr. Lindsay said last night that while representing the marginalized and unpopular is a lawyer's highest calling, it was a horribly disillusioning ordeal.
"I will never, ever do another security certificate case," he said. "A lawyer can play no meaningful role in the face of secret evidence. The lawyer's only role is as a fig leaf, to make the process look acceptable."
Mr. Lindsay said his attempts to secure a stay involve two Supreme Court leave applications:
A Federal Court of Appeal decision that Judge Blais was not biased and could hear the Zundel case.
An appeal of a constitutional challenge by suspected terrorist Adil Charkaoui to the constitutionality of the security certificate procedure.
Judge Blais said that what he heard in secret linked Mr. Zundel to leaders of the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nations movement and many others who often resort to violence.
He said that if Mr. Zundel truly repudiated violence, he would have shunned these people.
Judge Blais said that Mr. Zundel is an egotist who could not hide his pleasure at the enormous influence he exerted as a "guru of the right."
"I remember how proud he was when he mentioned in cross-examination that his Zundelsite received hits from 400,000 people a month, and that after his arrest, the number grew to 1.2-million people accessing his website each month," Judge Blais said.
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
My first thought is that this is not the U.S. we are dealing with, so another sovereign nation can deal with things as they see fit. Personally, I wish most such people with Aundel's viewpoints would be deported, but they have the right to have those viewpoints here. They have as much right to think their way as I do mine, except in Canada. In Canada, just criticizing gay marriage or lifestyle is now a crime. It sure sounds like an agenda in progress to me.
Remember that in a circle, one can move so far right that he is now left.
I hate if for people who don't have inalienable rights and the drive to retain them or die trying. This is why we have to preserve what we have here. I do not agree with this man's anti-Semitic ideas, I'd like to think that Americans who didn't agree with my ideas would put their lives in jeopardy to make sure I had the right to express them anyway. Lately I am beginning to think that is a silly idea, and that Americans are far to self interested to come to even their countrymen's aid unless they are on the same side of the political aisle. I hope not, or this grand experiment has just about run its course I am afraid, and there soon will be no such thing as "the free world".
Hard to call this one, without seeing the "secret evidence". He shouldn't be victimised just for having an opinion - being an A-H isn't a crime - yet.
But if he's been involved with the White Supremecy Movement - hang the fool!
Or at least kick him out . . .
Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
I'm pleased to see most agree that speaking your mind is not a crime. However, canada is not alone in punishing those who speak something others dislike. Germany also, considers Zundel a criminal for speaking his mind. It is most likely he will be put in jail as soon as his plane lands. Like Mel gibson's elderly Father, Zundel is an old man. I think it is cruel to abuse him just because he has the courage to speak his mind. I remind you all, we are considered the whack-o right because we believe in free speech and all of the bill of rights. We are considered a threat to America because we are patriotic and wave the flag. We are bizarre non-confomists because we reject the teaching of the gay lifestyle to our children in our schools. I say, there, but for the grace of good, go I/we. Think about it. You need not agree with his beliefs, just the right of free speech....our first amendment.
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
yup, free expression shouldn't be taken away from anyone, but as big dawg said, if he's one of those KKK nerdos, burn the mofo. Sure, there's the First Amendment, but The Declaration of Independence says something about "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...". Idealogy doesn't take long to transform into action - Nazi Germany is an example.
Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
Well, I would remind you that the KKK also stands for God & America. Though I understand the race thing is the major objection most people (PC'ers) have against them. Also, I guess the fact that they were as much action as they we talk also scares some folks. But, all that aside, even if he was a member, does not mean he's deserving of bannishment. Some might say the same about the naacp. Of course, that is differant, huh? but, to be fair, they did mention, in the article, he did "meet" (what ever that means) with members of that type of group. The act of "meeting" with them does not make him a member and, being a memeber is not illegal (is it?).
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
Well, meeting is not illegal, but if they're meeting in my neighborhood, there will be no doubt who fires the first shot. I'm not black but a minority and I will defend all my countrymen regardless of the color of their skin. I never took a dollar from the goverment, my parents are white collar and I am well educated. When a bunch of pointy hatted clowns start crap, you're either with me or against me. You've accused me before of being PC - racially despising or hating people is not being non-PC - that's just stupid and deserves to be condemned...and I'm not going to be standing around holding "love not war" signs.
As for NAACP: screw them. I never got a dollar for my education because of the color of my skin - didn't want it either.
"Well,meeting is not illegal,but if they're meeting in my neighborhood,there will be no doubt who fires the first shot."
I hope you don't mean that if someone whom you don't agree with meets in "your" neighborhood you are going to shoot them! That seems a bit pre-emptive to me.
"Well,meeting is not illegal,but if they're meeting in my neighborhood,there will be no doubt who fires the first shot."
I hope you don't mean that if someone whom you don't agree with meets in "your" neighborhood you are going to shoot them! That seems a bit pre-emptive to me.
I meant if someone's meeting in my neighborhood yelling "white power", "down with non-aryans" and so on, sure I'll bust their nutz. If someone wants to meet about "no college funding based on your color", "ban welfare", I don't care what they do.
And I don't own the neighborhood - it simple meant "in the immediate vicinity of my place of residence or work"...hope we're clear
don't need no crack,'hoes or trouble. Life's hard enough!
I don't know what you're talking about. I never did drugs, always lived in a white-collar majority violence-free neighborhood, both me and my parents are college post-graduates, I never referred to women as "hoes" - go pick on someone else.
so Rufus when you mean you will stay away from my "neighbor-hood" (as you called it), does that mean that you support or endorse "meeting in my neighborhood yelling "white power", "down with non-aryans" and so on" ? Because, that's what one would infer from your comment
Speaking of someone yelling white power,down with non-aryans,etc. you would bust their nutz,how about if they drove slowly through your neighborhood playing hate messages form their 500-1000 watt amplifiers so loud that it rattled your windows all hours of the day and night?
The high cost of free speech... 
I was reading the paper yesterday, Tampa tribune for 2/26, and saw an article I thought deserved comment. To qualify before the drum beat starts, dispite this gentleman's views on politics and such, basically, he has been imprisioned for speaking his thoughts and opinions. While in Canada, he has been kept in solitary and, during his trial, much of the so called "evidence" was heard in secret (what do they need to hide?). Here is an article i picked up for your thoughtful consideration. I mention this for several reasons but, mostly because of the patriot act rulings and laws applyed to this case. So, before you start waving you star of david flags, and calling me names, understand i offer this for discussion only! This man appears to be guilty of nothing more than speaking his mind. For that he has endured many years of JAIL!!!! 
