[meatloaf]

WOW this is a hoax right? That didnt realy come from the otherside of the pond.
Amazing, well I guess not since germany has always been the only country with balls in the European nations. Hell they took us on and everyone else twice, and it took us prostituting ourselves to Stalin to stop them.

[nathangdad]

Since WW2 America has wanted to be the world leader so badly we
have always jumped into situations rather than put responsibility on Europe for initiatives that should come from Europe. This is especially true of
the Balkans.

We must remove our policy from that of being the leader to that of being a participant at the table in many instances. If they want a European Union they must accept all that comes with it and that means sometimes you have to stand up to adversity rather than waiting for America or running to the United Nations.

Making a muslim holiday for your nation is insanity of the first magnitude.

[Klaus F.]

Quote:       Originally Posted by cremley

+1 one of my friends who lives in Dresden Germany always tells me about your "gun rights" and it makes me sad. anyway, Welcome to Gun and Game! Chris

thank you.
yes it makes me sad too, hence why i put the word "rights" in quotes.
besides, dresden is one of the most liberal cities in germany, to find conservatives in germany, look only to south bavaria and only look at the small villages...there u will find germany's real conservatives.

[stalebiscuit]

anyone else have a link

[FS00008]

What happened to the great Jaeger tradition of Germany? What happened to the NORMAL people and not the Green party ultra left-wingers?

Why couldn't the crazy German Ultra-Left Wingers go live in France?

[Rambo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Coeloptera

I'm just gonna throw one thing out here. Until we went there, Iraq was not home to Islamic militant organizations because Hussein hated them and they undermined his dictatorship. "For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything." Yeah, way to go, Dubya. Way to stir up a hornets' nest that didn't exist there until we showed up. Hussein was a bad guy, but he also stomped the militants down in his own country. We should have concentrated on them in other places because before we deposed him, fleeing to Iraq was not a good option for them. We could have trapped them in Afghanistan and played a tougher hand with Pakistan. Iran wasn't good for them either, because of the whole Shia/Sunni thing our administration seemed to have no clue about. Appeasement won't work with the Islamic militants. But giving them a place to run to and regroup when we went for their initial leadership did not help us any. We should have left them with no options to but to try to run to stable countries that wouldn't have wanted them to come in. Then we could have stomped them into the dirt, cut off from any external support or places to flee to. - Coeloptera

Any idea how many car bombs/IED's/suicide bombers went off in Iraq while Saddam was in power?

None!

Oops!

[stalebiscuit]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rambo

Any idea how many car bombs/IED's/suicide bombers went off in Iraq while Saddam was in power? None! Oops!

i did see a video where he tossed a bunch of folks off a building

and tested sarin gas on beagles

and...well the list goes on

[cremley]

Quote:       Originally Posted by stalebiscuit

i did see a video where he tossed a bunch of folks off a building and tested sarin gas on beagles and...well the list goes on

and the part where he was commiting genocide against the kurds but other than that, nothing major.

[stalebiscuit]

Quote:       Originally Posted by cremley

and the part where he was commiting genocide against the kurds but other than that, nothing major.

ya.....all of that stuff

ya know, its not that important

[Rambo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by stalebiscuit

i did see a video where he tossed a bunch of folks off a building and tested sarin gas on beagles and...well the list goes on

His country, his people. We don't go after bad leaders do we? Stalin murdered 15 million of his people and we let him be. Pol Pot murdered 2 million Cambodians and we let him live. Idi Amin murdered millions of his people and even ate them and we let him live. Hitler, well you know the rest. He committed suicide after we let him live.
Nah, it wasn't liberating the Iraqis from Saddam that sent us into Iraq.

[cremley]

well since this article has been proved true by snopes.com, I think this is my most favorite article of all time.

[stalebiscuit]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rambo

His country, his people. We don't go after bad leaders do we? Stalin murdered 15 million of his people and we let him be. Pol Pot murdered 2 million Cambodians and we let him live. Idi Amin murdered millions of his people and even ate them and we let him live. Hitler, well you know the rest. He committed suicide after we let him live. Nah, it wasn't liberating the Iraqis from Saddam that sent us into Iraq.

maybe so, but the dick needed to go

and as far as im concerned, patton shoulda just kept rolling his tank division into mother russia

[cremley]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rambo

His country, his people. We don't go after bad leaders do we? Stalin murdered 15 million of his people and we let him be. Pol Pot murdered 2 million Cambodians and we let him live. Idi Amin murdered millions of his people and even ate them and we let him live. Hitler, well you know the rest. He committed suicide after we let him live. Nah, it wasn't liberating the Iraqis from Saddam that sent us into Iraq.

probably true but why stand around and do nothing while millions are killed? Don't we as Americans stand for freedom and don't we have a responsibility to try our hardest to get freedom to everyone as much as we can? Or are we just cowards like most of the Europeans who would rather turn their back on the world becuase it may cost them some money and a few good men? What happened in the past is the past but why don't we start to make a change and not let these genocides take place any longer?

[toolman]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rambo

His country, his people. We don't go after bad leaders do we? Stalin murdered 15 million of his people and we let him be. Pol Pot murdered 2 million Cambodians and we let him live. Idi Amin murdered millions of his people and even ate them and we let him live. Hitler, well you know the rest. He committed suicide after we let him live. Nah, it wasn't liberating the Iraqis from Saddam that sent us into Iraq.

Let's see, we overlooked a bunch of bad stuff under other presidents, so GWB is supposed to do the same? You're right tho, we didn't go to Iraq to liberate the Iraqi citizens:

The Uranium Joe Wilson Didn't Mention

snopes.com: Weapons of Mass Destruction Quotes

I know, you can find far more quotes and links against the war, but I think you'll find that most were posted AFTER we went back to Iraq. Whatever your stance, there were compelling reasons to go.

[Rambo]

Quote:       Originally Posted by cremley

probably true but why stand around and do nothing while millions are killed? Don't we as Americans stand for freedom and don't we have a responsibility to try our hardest to get freedom to everyone as much as we can? Or are we just cowards like most of the Europeans who would rather turn their back on the world becuase it may cost them some money and a few good men? What happened in the past is the past but why don't we start to make a change and not let these genocides take place any longer?

They are still taking place. 5 million dead in the Congo these past 4 years and no intervention by the U.S.. Look at Darfur. Millions starving in North Korea. Where is Bush????

[toolman]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rambo

They are still taking place. 5 million dead in the Congo these past 4 years and no intervention by the U.S.. Look at Darfur. Millions starving in North Korea. Where is Bush????

Must be 'cause there's no oil...oops!

African Oil Journal

In all honesty, there has never been a perceived threat to the U.S. from any African nation and when we attempted to help, they refused. So, what's the solution???

[Coeloptera]

Quote:       Originally Posted by cremley

probably true but why stand around and do nothing while millions are killed? Don't we as Americans stand for freedom and don't we have a responsibility to try our hardest to get freedom to everyone as much as we can? Or are we just cowards like most of the Europeans who would rather turn their back on the world becuase it may cost them some money and a few good men? What happened in the past is the past but why don't we start to make a change and not let these genocides take place any longer?

Whatever gave you the idea we do this?

It certainly isn't Darfur, or the Congo, or Zimbabwe. Do you have any idea what God's Army is doing in Burma? Child soldiers. Do you know what's happening in the Congo? It's hell down there...people are eating each other, people are being raped and mutilated in large numbers. Do you think, for an instant, the US will ever take military action to help them?

The US does not intervene based purely on how bad a situation is for the people in a region. We intervene when our own national interests are threatened. There's nothing wrong with that.

Lying about it is another thing entirely.

- Coeloptera

[YankeeSpirit76]

Quote:       Originally Posted by nathangdad

Since WW2 America has wanted to be the world leader so badly we have always jumped into situations rather than put responsibility on Europe for initiatives that should come from Europe. This is especially true of the Balkans. We must remove our policy from that of being the leader to that of being a participant at the table in many instances. If they want a European Union they must accept all that comes with it and that means sometimes you have to stand up to adversity rather than waiting for America or running to the United Nations. Making a muslim holiday for your nation is insanity of the first magnitude.

Nathan, I don't think it is so much our policy as much as our knowing if we don't do it, nothing will be done! You mentioned the Balkins. I agree 100%. That was in Europe's own back yard and still they did nothing. We all know what they were thinking...this is going to be bloody and very expensive, lets just sit back till the Yanks come and spill their blood ,and spend their billions, and it works every time!!!
They all Bad mouth us for everything we do ,yet they won't do anything. They force the role of "World Policeman" on us and then curse us for doing it.
We have very few good friends in the world like Canada, England, and Australia. But they don't of themselves have the Military might to act alone, but at least they help! The Euro's won't do squat!

[cremley]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Coeloptera

Whatever gave you the idea we do this? It certainly isn't Darfur, or the Congo, or Zimbabwe. Do you have any idea what God's Army is doing in Burma? Child soldiers. Do you know what's happening in the Congo? It's hell down there...people are eating each other, people are being raped and mutilated in large numbers. Do you think, for an instant, the US will ever take military action to help them? The US does not intervene based purely on how bad a situation is for the people in a region. We intervene when our own national interests are threatened. There's nothing wrong with that. Lying about it is another thing entirely. - Coeloptera

I think you guys misunderstood me.

I know we didn't go into Iraq to save anyone and I know we don't intervene when people around the world are being murdered by the millions. What I was trying to say, was that we should be trying to do something to help those that need a helping hand. It is one thing when people don't want us there to help them (like Iraq) but it is another thing to just turn our backs on people who are actually crying out for help. Personally, if we want to protect our own national interest, we need to go on the offense. Have you ever heard the quote: "a good defense is a good offense"? I think it stands very true for the world, especially the way the global economy is starting to go.

Chris

[YankeeSpirit76]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Coeloptera

Whatever gave you the idea we do this? It certainly isn't Darfur, or the Congo, or Zimbabwe. Do you have any idea what God's Army is doing in Burma? Child soldiers. Do you know what's happening in the Congo? It's hell down there...people are eating each other, people are being raped and mutilated in large numbers. Do you think, for an instant, the US will ever take military action to help them? The US does not intervene based purely on how bad a situation is for the people in a region. We intervene when our own national interests are threatened. There's nothing wrong with that. Lying about it is another thing entirely. - Coeloptera

Coel, I'm glad you ended with the sentence, "There's nothing wrong with that".
All those places you mentioned as "being hell down there" is true, but it sounds to me like even Americans are expecting America to go solve everything. I think it's time for the rest of the world to kick in and act like civilized men. Let Europe go do something about Africa. You don't have to be a military super power to go deal with a few thousand murderers.
Europe has become so limp that all the Viagra in the world couldn't help it. I take my hat off to the German author of that article.
Don't all these things going on in all these places prove how irrelevant and completely useless the U.N. is? I say let it go the way of the league of nations.