Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
I thought this might liven up the party!
So This Is How Liberty Dies?
Steven LaTulippe | May 27 2005
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
~ The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America
In the most recent episodes of Star Wars, George Lucas takes his audience on a journey through the process of political decay. He illustrates the ironies and absurdities inherent in the collapse of a limited, republican form of government. He portrays the defenders of the republic as confused and impotent while he exposes the vile and conspiratorial nature of their imperial adversaries.
In what surely must be one of the fascinating examples of life imitating art, the typical observer of American politics ought to be awestruck by the events unfolding around him on a routine basis.
Hardly a day passes now without some new outrage being perpetrated on our republic by those in the halls of power. It is happening with such regularity that one could almost excuse the concerned citizen for simply throwing in the towel and tuning out.
But occasionally something so egregious occurs that even the most jaded and cynical among us have to stand up and take notice.
Just such an event unfolded in the halls of the United States Senate this week in the form of a hearing concerning the FBI’s quest for new investigative powers included in the latest Patriot Act.
Alan Eisner at Reuters reports:
The FBI on Tuesday asked the U.S. Congress for sweeping new powers to seize business or private records, ranging from medical information to book purchases, to investigate terrorism without first securing approval from a judge.
Valerie Caproni, FBI general counsel, told the U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee her agency needed the power to issue what are known as administrative subpoenas to get information quickly about terrorist plots and the activities of foreign agents.
In essence, the FBI wants the power to issue "administrative subpoenas" to execute searches without the annoyance of having to show probable cause in a court. (Since the agency carrying out the search is going to be the one issuing the subpoena, one wonders why they even bother with a subpoena at all. Why not just ransack wherever they please and dispense with the fiction altogether? Can anyone envision a circumstance where the FBI would refuse to issue a search warrant to itself?)
The Republicans, who have discarded their previous concerns for the Bill of Rights like a snake shedding its skin, are the primary supporters of this scheme.
Committee chairman, Kansas Sen. Pat Roberts, noted that other government agencies already had subpoena power to investigate matters such as child pornography, drug investigations and medical malpractice. He said it made little sense to deny those same powers to the FBI to investigate terrorism or keep track of foreign intelligence agents.
One has to admit certain logic in his argument. After all, if other government agencies are already disregarding the constitution, then why can’t the FBI?
But the really fascinating parts of the testimony came later. The first example was when the FBI counsel claimed that these powers were needed to prevent terrorist attacks such as car bombs. When challenged on that point, she responded:
Caproni said she could not cite a case where a bomb had exploded because the FBI lacked this power, but that did not mean one could not explode tomorrow.
Whether she appreciated it or not, this is the pure, undiluted logic of a Sith Lord. In essence, she contends that we should discard our constitutional protections here and now in the theoretical hope that we can avoid a terrorist attack at some undefined point in the future.
We are, in short, to abandon our freedom for the mirage of security.
While the advocates for the empire are obnoxious and tragically predictable, their odiousness is petty compared to the nature of the bill’s opponents. If anyone dares look down upon the defenders of Lucas’ Republic as being ineffectual and spineless, I give you the junior Senator from West Virginia:
"I am not aware of any time in which Congress has given directly to the FBI subpoena authority. That doesn't make it right or wrong. It just needs to be thought about," said West Virginia Democrat Jay Rockefeller.
An agent of the executive branch paraded into the Senate Chamber with a proposal that directly trashes one of the most important protections in our Bill of Rights, and the esteemed legislator’s only reply was that he cannot say if it is "right or wrong".
With friends like these, liberty hardly needs enemies.
Patrick Henry, he is not.
In better times, any government official openly agitating for the evisceration of our constitution would be immediately relieved of his job. After all, are not members of our security forces sworn to protect and defend our freedoms? And how has our system degenerated so badly that those advocating authoritarian policies are outspoken and arrogant while those supporting our freedom are wishy-washy and pathetic?
Truly, we are seeing the visions of Yeats come to life before our very eyes.
"The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."
A glance at the structure of our government in this late era of republican governance demonstrates a variety of oddities and ironies. The most interesting is the observation that each branch of our government is now ignoring those areas where its actual responsibilities lie while simultaneously intruding into areas where it was once explicitly forbidden.
Thus, we have a judiciary that is meekly turning over its responsibility to scrutinize warrants to various elements of the executive branch. Meanwhile, these same judges have abandoned the constitution’s moorings and are dictating social policy to the nation far in excess of any powers envisioned by our Founders.
The congress, in a cowardly and cynical attempt to avoid responsibility, has abrogated its constitutional mandate to make declarations of war to the executive branch. Thus, presidents now take America into conflicts without the necessary debate and scrutiny that the Founders intended. Meanwhile, these same legislators have constructed a myriad of bloated and corrupt programs that are found nowhere in their powers enumerated by the constitution (i.e. retirement Ponzi schemes, prescription drug programs, Byzantine agricultural subsidies, etc. etc.).
The executive branch now reigns supreme over foreign policy with almost no checks or balances whatsoever. The result has been the repeated abuse of the military in a variety of undeclared wars that have almost no relationship to the well-being of the people of this country. This same executive branch, meanwhile, refuses to enforce federal laws that it finds objectionable, such as defending our own borders from the hordes of illegals crossing on a daily basis.
Thus, we have a judiciary that wants to be a legislature, a legislature that wants to be a sugar daddy, and a president who wants to be an emperor.
It is a sorry sight to behold, and one that will probably make for a great tragic adventure series someday.
Unfortunately, we are all cast in the role of the "innocent bystanders."
And everyone knows what usually happens to them.
I found this to be a real eye opener. Your comments?
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
The problem is two fold, one, getting anyone in the mainstream to believe this and two, getting anyone to vote out a bad politician.
Scares the crap outta me!
Short of voting, spreading the word and writing about a dozen letters and the same amount of phone calls to acompany, I dunno what else I can do....In fact, because of this I am probably on every crackpots watch list.......
The problem is stupid, usless people that do not have time, or care, to hold the politicians feet to the fire. As long as it doesn't alter their tiny little self centered world they don't care.
I'd rather be one of the brave few who would rather go out making a stand when Big Brother rolls over us, than live like a cowering panty waist under total control of the mind police.....
another left wing weenie whining for about the S.O.S. notice this mighty intellect has to include a SCI-FI movie in his drivel, like it really means something.
Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
Well, though you are correct, all of you, the problem remains. I do not trust the gummint! Anyone who does, in my whacked out opinion, is a much more foolish person than me, and, I wish them luck.
__________________
"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
This next election our Rfepublican senator will lose my vote. If the Democrats had proposed this the republicans would have been screaming left and right.
Unfortunately the politicians will only do what the people want them to do. If the people stay silent they will keep on going.
Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
SPOCAHP ANAR : Your point is well taken. I fear some don't realize that the patriot act, and it's broad new powers, have already been abuse more times than an old hound dog has fleas! They have used the new powers for everything but what is was given them for. What reason do we, as citizen have, to believe a word the lying scum bags have to say? In my own case, no need to go into it, I have been victumized by the intentional miss-use of the laws! Guess what, i can't do a darn thing about it. Even my congress persons, all six of them...to add the govenor of Florida to the list also, are powerless to help. So, I say to all those of you who think it's just fine, remember:"But, for the grace of God, go I!" you never know when this crap may touch your lives. I'll wager you will remebr your comments, and mine, this day.
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
ok, how many of y'all been impacted by the Patriot Act??? has the gummint been up your butt about anything??? come on lets here it.
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh-ha!!! jsut as i thought, no one here has been affected by the Patriot Act, buncha pantywaist libs, whining, and moaning, about a boogie man that doesn't exist. 'yet after (/11/01 most of y'all were crying for revenge, and to get the basturds that might be in the CONUS. now you are chicken of the gummint that you want to protect your stinking arses. what the flock, get over it conspiracy freaks, you'll lose yer 2nd Amendment Rights, before the last 9 go.
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MOE! LARRY! THE CHEESE!
Life Member the Elmer Fudd Hunt Club
Papa you try to discredit the opponents of the patriot act saying we are worried over nothing; I say you are a hypocrite and a liar only because Bush proposed this piece of sewage legislation and the other sychophants in his, and presumably your, party passed it.
If you are so trusting of this government then why don't you support a national registration database for guns? Same government, they won't abuse it will they? What? afraid someone will decide guns should be banned and then use it to come and get yours? Hasn't happened to me; anyone else here have their guns siezed? Nope, I didn't think so. Guess it won't happen or couldn't happen so quit whining about it and be a man and carry your guns down to the courthouse and register them.
Of course you won't do this just as I am sure you won't go down to the sherrif's office to give them your fingerprints or DNA voluntarily. And you haven't done this not because you didn't want to; but because you DON'T have to. It's called the 4th amendment.
BTW could I ask you Are you afraid of giving the government your DNA or fingerprints? Thought so.........
the gummints got more prints n !!!! on me than i can remember. ain't 'fraid of the gummint. n' it ain't Bush and Co. we all know you hate BushCo. if your boy Gore was in it would be all better. my 10 year old won't go out in the dark by herself, is it because the dark has a real threat, or just imagination???
ONCE MORE THE CHALLENGE: HAS ANYONE HERE BEEN PERSONALLYAFFECTED BY THE PATRIOT ACT??? what ifs and supposes not accepted
__________________
MOE! LARRY! THE CHEESE!
Life Member the Elmer Fudd Hunt Club
Didn't vote for Gore voted for Bush - twice; and he has been a very big disappointment this time around. I don't hate Bush, or anyone for that matter; which I suspect is your problem. You are so filled with disghust and anger against those who don't think like you that you can't see beyond your own party's inconsistancy and weakness. You, like the republicans are so smitten with power that you can't see that you are as corrupt as the other party.
Papa G my 9 yo understands the comparative probability analysis of 5000 people versus 250 million for your so called challenge. A lessen in statistics you need.
When the democrats regain power you will have noone to blame but yourselves.
Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
Hey! Lighten up! Papa, you asked who amounst us has been wronged by the patriot act. I have acknowelaged that I have been a victum...now, let's do the math. We've had seven repliys. Six have not mentioned anything and one has....Now, for the sake of simple math, that's 15% have suffered while the other 85% have not or, just don't know. I'll bet there are some, maybe all, who have been violated just because they are members of this forum! You don't think the gumint be watching you? So, with that one thought, it's possible that 100% of the respondants have been harmed and 85% don't even know it! the fact you don't know, just by itself, is criminal! Don't you think?And, the fact they watch you, a good American that you are, presumably, is criminal if you aren't a sand box person. Remember, these laws were passed to by-pass the constitution! You all know that. If this was not the one, and only reason, why bother to make it a law and, then, try to gain the public's approval? Okay, so we all know these laws are created to by=pass the constitution, supposedly, to get them mean ole terrorists. Why aren't we getting the terrorists? Simple, they would rather hassel you, and me and all the other folks who are not of sand box decent. You know why? Simple...because they want the power we have, as given to use by the constitution. Once those powers are taken from us, we become slaves. And you must admit, the gumint sure likes them slaves. So, if they won't use what they have correctly or, as they told us they would, what moron would give them more power to abuse? Duh, think about it this way, would you give a monkey a loaded revolver and then, remain next to the bars of the monkey cage? Of course you wouldn't. Giving the gumint any more power than it has already stolen for it's self is just as stupid. The gumint may be more stupid than the stupidest monkey but, they are still very, very dangerous and thier appitite for power is without end. Though they may not know how to use the revolver, they may just get luckey and blast the moron who gave them the revolver. Hey, stranger things have happened.
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
Last edited by Rufus Rhastus J; 05-31-2005 at 10:06 AM.
Didn't vote for Gore voted for Bush - twice; and he has been a very big disappointment this time around. I don't hate Bush, or anyone for that matter; which I suspect is your problem. You are so filled with disghust and anger against those who don't think like you that you can't see beyond your own party's inconsistancy and weakness. You, like the republicans are so smitten with power that you can't see that you are as corrupt as the other party.
Papa G my 9 yo understands the comparative probability analysis of 5000 people versus 250 million for your so called challenge. A lessen in statistics you need.
When the democrats regain power you will have noone to blame but yourselves.
aimless drivel, you cannot answer the question, so you head on an anti-Papa G rant. glad your 9 year old is a brilliant mathimitchan( yeah i got spelling issues to). still there is not one person here affected by it, nor will they ever. my politics are driven unfortunatly by the lesser of two evils, bu't ya'll vote however y'all wish. .
__________________
MOE! LARRY! THE CHEESE!
Life Member the Elmer Fudd Hunt Club
I was watching an interview on Fox News and the person being interviewed was asked if the patriot act had helped in apprehending any terrorists,his answer was not that we know of ,but it might have averted an attack that we didn't know of.
Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
Papa, I ain't mad at you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAPA G
aimless drivel, you cannot answer the question, so you head on an anti-Papa G rant. glad your 9 year old is a brilliant mathimitchan( yeah i got spelling issues to). still there is not one person here affected by it, nor will they ever. my politics are driven unfortunatly by the lesser of two evils, bu't ya'll vote however y'all wish. .
But, I wish you could stop your flag wavin' and see the truth of what's going on. Many times I have said, you cannot just look away, ignore the problem....just that act alone will not make it go away. And likewise, saying the patriot act hurts no one and will never be a problem does not make it so. The truth is, and you know this, the patriot act is evil, and has been from the moment of it's conception. Yeah, they say they will use it to combat the terrorist but, the facts have been otherwise. Papa, ignore my warning if you want, but I am sure the day will come when you, and all the others who support our rights being curtailed, will lament thier words and deeds. But, by then, what will be the use? Our constitution will have been gutted by then. and it won't be the hated, and despised democrappers! It will be Bush & Co.!!
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
its a crime to wave the flag, its a crime to seek vngence for 9/11/01, when we were shamelessly attacked by the fuctching sand devils. its a crime to cry for those that were killed that day, who did nothing but live their lives!!!
somonamitch, you guys are the biggest bunch of whiney, touch feely pussies ever been. this country has been on the liberal slide for so long, y'all whine like them, don't worry you get another chance next year, than 2008. go ahead vote what ever, but 2008 the slide gets grease.
__________________
MOE! LARRY! THE CHEESE!
Life Member the Elmer Fudd Hunt Club
I thought this might liven up the party! 
So This Is How Liberty Dies?
![Sniper[MI]'s Avatar](http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/customavatars/avatar690_2.gif){kind=avatar}
But, I wish you could stop your flag wavin' and see the truth of what's going on. Many times I have said, you cannot just look away, ignore the problem....just that act alone will not make it go away. And likewise, saying the patriot act hurts no one and will never be a problem does not make it so. The truth is, and you know this, the patriot act is evil, and has been from the moment of it's conception. Yeah, they say they will use it to combat the terrorist but, the facts have been otherwise. Papa, ignore my warning if you want, but I am sure the day will come when you, and all the others who support our rights being curtailed, will lament thier words and deeds. But, by then, what will be the use? Our constitution will have been gutted by then. and it won't be the hated, and despised democrappers! It will be Bush & Co.!!
