Old 07-15-2005, 07:19 AM   #1
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Exclamation "IN GOD WE TRUST"

-- STAMPING OUT RELIGION ON NATIONAL CURRENCY

Is it a futile form of protest? A symptom of frustration? Some Atheists and separationists are crossing out the national motto on paper money. Whatever your opinion, the history of how "In God We Trust" ended up on currency shows that the motto is religious, not secular, in its origin and function today.

Web Posted: March 15, 1999

Across the country, there is a movement afoot.

It isn't using picket signs, or a flood of letters to congress, or even a lawsuit -- that's already been tried. Instead, some Atheists and separationists are taking pen in hand, and obliterating the "In God We Trust" motto from the national currency. Others are using rubber stamps, or inserting their own messages like "In Reason We Trust," or "Keep Church and State Separate." Mention religious slogans in an internet newsgroup or at a meeting and eyebrows are suddenly raised. Opinions are expressed. And there's a tame call to action, even if does only use the nearest ball-point or magic marker.

Indeed, religious graffiti on currency is one of the issues which sooner or later all of us will sound off about. It's also one of the periodic topics that ends up being vented, dissected and discussed on news groups and mailing lists. Simply put, most Atheists don't like the "In God We Trust" slogan staring at us every time we pull out our wallets or purses. It has to go. But how?

One of the first legal actions to challenge religious sloganeering of this type was made in 1978 by American Atheists founder Madalyn Murray O'Hair. In the case of MADALYN MURRAY O'HAIR et al. v. W. MICHAEL BLUMENTHAL, SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY, et al. (462 F. Supp. 19 -- W.D. Tex 1978), the court opined: "Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of religious exercise." The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit reached a similar conclusion in the 1970 case ARONOW v. UNITED STATES. Subsequent cases also fell short, even though they argued that the motto clearly encouraged religion and made a statement about god and theology. On September 14, 1988, then-President of American Atheists Jon Murray addressed the Subcommittee on Consumer Affairs and Coinage concerning proposals to redesign the nation's currency. At that time, Murray expressed concern about including "In God We Trust" on the national currency, suggesting instead a return to the secular "E Pluribus Unum" ("One from many") that was used earlier in the nation's history.

Where did "In God We Trust" originate? Many mistakenly believe that it has been the national motto since revolutionary days; but the phraseology is strictly religious in origin.

monthly special The national motto adopted by the Founders was inscribed next to the Great Seal of the United States, a decoration devised under the supervision of Franklin, Adams and Jefferson. It was Jefferson who suggested "E Pluribus Unum," and that slogan was adopted in 1782, five years before the Constitutional convention of 1787.

It wasn't until nearly a century later, though, that "In God We Trust" was seriously proposed as a motto. Writing in her book "Freedom Under Siege," (J.P.Tarcher, Los Angeles, 1974), Madalyn O'Hair delineated the historical background for readers:

"In 1861, the Reverend M.R. Watkinson persuaded the secretary of the Treasury to try to introduce 'In God We Trust' as a motto on the coins of the land, arguing on the theological premise that in a Judeo-Christian nation, 'There is but one God.' Congress, then beginning to be responsive to the religious community and the votes that it was presumed to control, passed the Coinage Act of April 22, 1864, which designated that 'In God We Trust' be put on coins 'when and where sufficient space in the balance of the design' would permit it."

Rev. Watkinson's missive was directed to Secretary of the Treasury Samuel P. Chase. It read:

"Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances.

One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.

You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW..."

Seven days after the transmittal of Watkinson's letter, Secretary Chase, on November 20, 1861, wrote to James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia. He instructed Pollock to prepare a motto, declaring "No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins..." A design was submitted in December, 1863 proposing OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY, or the alternative of GOD, OUR TRUST. On December 9, 1863, Chase formally approved a third slogan in a letter to the Mint Director.

"I approve your mottoes (sic), only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST."

"In God We Trust" thus appeared on the short-lived 1864 two-cent coin. It has been used continuously on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on dimes since 1916. Since July 1, 1908,"In God We Trust" has also been stamped on gold coins, silver dollars, quarters and half-dollar coins

Watkinson's effort to religionize the coinage was part of a larger campaign waged by a coalition of eleven Protestant denominations under the umbrella of the National Reform Association. Disenchanted with the secularism of documents such as the Constitution, the NRA sought to amend that instrument to "indicate that this is a Christian nation." Petitions were raised and formally presented to Congress. They proposed a new preamble to the Constitution which read:

"We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government..."

Fortunately, the petition failed despite the membership of powerful and wealthy men in the National Reform Association. They included Supreme Court Justice William Strong, a handful of governors and prominent businessmen.

IS IT LEGAL?
What about crossing out "In God We trust" on paper money? Is it legal? There appears to be confusion over the legality of stamping out or erasing the motto, or writing a message on US currency. We noted that Title 18 Section 333 of the U.S. Code prohibits defacement of currency if it is done with the intent to defraud, i.e. changing the face value.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 07:20 AM   #2
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
We also received a fax which apparently comes from the same code or a similar regulation. It is listed at the top as "Ch. 25, COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY 18-476. Section 475 reads as follows:

"Imitating obligations or securities; advertisements. Whoever designs, engraves, prints, makes or executes, or utters, issues, distributes, circulates; or uses any business or professional card, notice, placard, circular, handbill, or advertisement in the likeness or similitude of any obligation or security of the United States issued under or authorized by any Act of Congress, or writes, prints, or otherwise impresses upon or attaches to any such instrument, obligation, or security, or any coin of the United States, any business or professional card, notice, or advisement, or any notice or advertisement whatever, shall be fined not more than $500."

A citation below this reads "June 25, 1948, c 645. 62 Stat.706; July 16, 1951, c.226. 2. 65 Stat. 22."

A recent television program included a segment on "traveling money," where people wrote down phone numbers or addresses on currency, only to have the bill returned, or somebody call them. There was no mention of FBI or BATF swat teams storming their houses for this offense. On the other hand, should hundreds, then thousands of Atheists and separationists start crossing out "In God We Trust," there just might be a prosecution under the above mentioned statute.

The point of this article, which originally appeared in AANEWS, was not to encourage readers to empty their wallets and purses and develop a new form of carpal tunnel disorder by crossing out IGWT on millions of bills. We wanted to provide the historical background on how this clearly religious slogan found its way onto our nation's money supply; we likewise suggested that crossing out "In God We Trust" betrays the frustration which many people admittedly feel at a legal system which chooses when, and under what circumstances, it will truly recognize the full separation of church and state. The idea that "In God We Trust" or incantations to a deity at public gatherings serve a "secular function" and do not advance religious belief is something we still find incredible.

So, what about crossing out "In God We Trust" or writing a message on money? Should you do it? At least consider the potential consequences; and realize money passes through our hands quite rapidly. We usually glance to check whether it's a $1 bill, a sawbuck, or something bigger. One alternative to spending your time obliterating IGWT is to put the same effort into a letter-to-the-editor of your local paper, or even your representative in Foggy Bottom. Either way, the choice is yours.
The next step in the process of religionizing the national currency had to wait nearly a century, when on July 11.1955, President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed Public Law 140 making it mandatory that all coinage and paper currency display the motto "In God We Trust." The following year, Public Law 851 was enacted and signed, which officially replaced the national motto "E Pluribus Unum" with "In God We Trust" All of this occurred at the height of cold war tension, when political divisions between the Soviet and western block was simplistically portrayed as a confrontation between Judeo-Christian civilization and the "godless" menace of communism. Indeed, the new national motto was only part of a broader effort to effectively religionize civic ritual and symbols. On June 14, 1954, Congress unanimously ordered the inclusion of the words "Under God" into the nation's Pledge of Allegiance. By this time, other laws mandating public religiosity had also been enacted, including a statute for all federal justices and judges to swear an oath concluding with "So help me God."

All paper currency issued after October 1, 1957 included the IN GOD WE TRUST national motto.

OTHER RELIGIOUS ORIGINS

The phrase "In God We Trust" does not appear in the Bible. Nevertheless Biblical passages such as 1 Timothy: 4-10 ("Trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men...") and 2 Corinthians 1:9 ("But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead...") are cited as scriptural inspiration. And just as the pleas of Rev. Watkinson and the National Reform Association had led to the inclusion of "In God We Trust" on coinage, similar religious sentiments were used to justify the mottos addition to the nation's paper currency. Evidence of this comes from an examination of the Congressional Record. On June 7, 1955 for instance, Congressman Bennett of Florida rose in support of H.R..619, a bill "Providing for the inscription of 'In God We Trust' on all United States Currency and Coins." Bennett declared:

"I sincerely hope that the Senate will give its prompt approval to this proposal. In these days when imperialistic and materialistic communism seeks to attack and destroy freedom, we should continuously look for ways to strengthen the foundations of our freedom. At the base of our freedom is our faith in God and the desire of Americans to live by His will and His guidance. As long as this country trust in God, it will prevail. To serve as a constant reminder of this truth, it is highly desirable that our currency and coins should bear these inspiring words 'In God We Trust.'"

CHALLENGING THE MOTTO: O'HAIR v. BLUEMENTHAL

The 1978 MADALYN MURRAY O'HAIR v. W. MICHAEL BLUMENTHAL case was decided at the U.S Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit. There, the court invoked the notion of "secular purpose," suggesting that like prayer at government meetings or other displays of religiosity in government, the motto was "really" no religious. The court declared with regard to the motto "In God We Trust," that "Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise. " The Ninth Circuit had reached a similar conclusion in the ARONOW v. UNITED STATES case in 1970.

DEFACING FEDERAL CURRENCY?

So, what about those folks who are launching a civil protest by crossing out the "In God We Trust" motto, or stamping an alternative slogan on the currency. What about frustrated separationists who instead write "Atheist Money" or something similar in the thin margins of every dollar bill? Are they breaking the law? Reproduction or alteration of currency with an intent to defraud does violate federal statutes; but using the greenback as a bulletin board for social protest does not. Article 331, Title 18 of the U.S. Code prohibits defacement of currency only if it is performed with such deceptive intent, or the depicted face value of the currency is altered in a significant way. How effective the tactic is remains to be seen. Would government suddenly take notice if hundreds of thousands or millions of bills were altered with the motto crossed out?

Ironically, religious groups and courts often use the same evidence to argue vastly different conclusions. Money and the "In God We Trust" motto is a case in point. While researching this story we discovered that the religious motto was often cited by religious groups as "proof" of the melding of government and faith, or in support of the notion that America is founded upon Christian religious principles. Other evidence included the opening of congressional sessions with prayer, the display of a Ten Commandments bas relief at the U.S. Supreme Court building, or the fact that the President of the United States takes the oath of office while swearing on a bible. The same sort of evidence, though, often appears in court rulings which decide establishment clause cases. Justices will cite the "In God We Trust" motto, for example, as evidence of a "civic religion," or maintain that it has a secular intent.


One thing remains certain. Despite the convincing evidence that "In God We Trust" has a strong origin in religious sensibilities, it is doubtful that courts today would care to revisit O'HAIR v. BLUMENTHAL, or any other case which proposes to take up this controversial issue. Scratching out "In God We Trust," or stamping separationist slogans on the currency displays the frustration that many Atheists have in dealing with a legal system which rarely holds to a stern and strict interpretation of the establishment clause. The wall of separation goes only so far.

You can bet your money on it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 07:22 AM   #3
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

now I'm no atheist I posted this thread to let y'all get a peek into that mindset :right: personnally I believe that "In God We Trust" is an outstanding motto
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 08:43 AM   #4
Firearm Zealot
 
Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: North Florida - the Gunshine State!
Posts: 15,415
Hmmm . . . I was always led to believe that defacing national currency is a crime. Rarely enforced . . . maybe that should change.
__________________
USAF - 1976 - 1980
USN - 1980 - 1986
FLDOE - 1990 - present
Big Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 08:51 AM   #5
Firearm Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 20
i'll probably get flamed for this but i mean no disrespect. you all think its a good slogan becasue your christian, but much like you all as gun owners desire the second amendment be upheld to protect your rights to have guns, non-christians desire to have their rights protected to not "have to be christian". how would you all feel if it said in Budda we trust or in Allah we trust? you wouldnt becasue thats not an accurate repersentation of how you feel. personally i think we should leave well enough alone, but i dont look down on anyone for not being christian or trying to protect their freedom.
bluetruck99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 10:05 AM   #6
Firearm Aficionado
 
ruger22com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mobile Alabama
Posts: 772
Not to mention p'off the F & AM'ers
__________________
Visit CheapGunParts.com today!
Over 150 10/22 accessories!
ruger22com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 02:37 PM   #7
Firearm Aficionado
 
Gunnie Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: three clicks left of center.
Posts: 814
i prefer "Gott mitt uns."
Gunnie Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 05:30 PM   #8
Firearm Zealot
 
.22guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 7,770
You know, if these people don't like it, then get the !!!! out. Go live somewhere else. We won't miss you.
.22guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 05:40 PM   #9
Firearm Aficionado
 
Gunnie Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: three clicks left of center.
Posts: 814
that only works with people who hate this country. these people only hate how it's slowly becoming dominated by religious fundamentalism, you know, just like the fundamentalism that we're supposed to be fighting overseas.


the forefathers were deists. they did not want a state ruled by God, but rather a state ruled by Law.

tell me, are we right because God deems us so, or does God deem us right because we are?

the whole "Under God" thing wasn't standard on curency untill the 1950s. and only then it was part of the whole Mcarthy thing against the "Goddless Red Plauge."

let it go, there are other ways to unify a people.
Gunnie Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 05:53 PM   #10
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

Quote:       Originally Posted by Oxford
I received the following email from a friend today and thought it was well worth posting on G&G. Some excellent points were made which leads me to believe further that our court system should revisit some of their more recent rulings against having any religious symbols, etc. posted in public places.

Sure, since the the United States of America was founded, thousands if not millions of immigrants who worship religions other than Christianity, have become American citizens. That doesn't mean that Christian principals upon which the country was founded should be eliminated. Please read the following essay as I stand aside and salute those founding fathers of America.
Oxford
----------------

DID YOU KNOW?

As you walk up the steps to the Capitol Building which houses
the Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row
of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle
who is facing forward with a full frontal view - it is Moses
and the Ten Commandments!

As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak
doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower
portion of each door.

As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall, right above
where the Supreme Court judges sit, a display of the Ten
Commandments!

There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal
Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.

James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of
Our Constitution" made the following statement "We have
staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the
capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each
and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain
ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country
said, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this
great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians,
not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid
preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.!
Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were
members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.

Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep
their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin
making law....an oligarchy...the rule of few over many.

The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said,
Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."
How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we
have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly
wrong and unconstitutional?
:nod: :right:
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 05:59 PM   #11
Firearm Zealot
 
rebel727's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Heidelberg, Mississippi
Posts: 2,668
The founding fathers wanted freedom OF religion not freedom FROM it. Lack of religion is a large part of what's wrong with this country now.
rebel727 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 11:01 PM   #12
Firearm Aficionado
 
ruger22com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mobile Alabama
Posts: 772
Actually..and this is not mentioned much...if you take a deep study of history...our founding fathers revolted NOT because they wanted to seperate from englend so much.......but because they considered themselves good englishmen, but were mad because they were denied the rights any "good englishman" gets from the king back in the homeland.

If you asked any of the signers of the constitution if they thought they were good englishmen, you would hear a resounding "
yes". a lot of arguments on the rev war miss this important fact.
__________________
Visit CheapGunParts.com today!
Over 150 10/22 accessories!
ruger22com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2005, 11:49 PM   #13
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Lightbulb sounds neo nazi to me

Quote:       Originally Posted by Gunnie Ed
i prefer "Gott mitt uns."
MARCH OF THE TITANS -

A HISTORY OF THE WHITE RACE

Chapter 38 : Gott Mit Uns - The Rise of Germany
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2005, 01:51 AM   #14
Firearm Zealot
 
Despoiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Occupied Territory of California
Posts: 2,352
Gott mitt uns = God is with us.

German soldiers wore belt buckles during WWII with "Gott mitt uns" on them.

LD, I think you are being too sensitive, I don't think Gunnie Ed was being a "Neo Nazi"
Despoiler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2005, 03:47 AM   #15
Firearm Aficionado
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 690
Quote:       Originally Posted by Gunnie Ed
that only works with people who hate this country. these people only hate how it's slowly becoming dominated by religious fundamentalism, you know, just like the fundamentalism that we're supposed to be fighting overseas.


the forefathers were deists. they did not want a state ruled by God, but rather a state ruled by Law.

tell me, are we right because God deems us so, or does God deem us right because we are?

the whole "Under God" thing wasn't standard on curency untill the 1950s. and only then it was part of the whole Mcarthy thing against the "Goddless Red Plauge."


let it go, there are other ways to unify a people.
Hear hear!!

As a religious man I always thought that "under god" thing on money
was blasphemy, go figure
NorCalAshnjikov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2005, 09:25 AM   #16
Firearm Aficionado
 
Gunnie Ed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: three clicks left of center.
Posts: 814
Quote:       Originally Posted by AllenT
Gott mitt uns = God is with us.

German soldiers wore belt buckles during WWII with "Gott mitt uns" on them.

LD, I think you are being too sensitive, I don't think Gunnie Ed was being a "Neo Nazi"

i was being facetious, and pointing out that not just "God fearing christians" put religious slogans on their currencey/property.


also, i like the wat "Gott mitt uns" sounds like "Got Mittens."
Gunnie Ed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2005, 09:49 AM   #17
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

I was rattling your cage GE..
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2005, 09:51 AM   #18
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I've always been told that Jesus said “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2005, 11:38 AM   #19
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Question

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rave
S.O.S. :nod:
que' ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2005, 04:58 PM   #20
Logansdad
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Talking

:right:
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Gun & Game - The Friendliest Gun Forum on the Internet > General > The Powder Keg

Tags
god, in god we trust, quotin, trustquot

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:25 AM.




Recent Discussions

Connect with us!
Advertisement



"It don't cost nuthin' to be nice." -- Mike West