Katrina; New Orleans - Who's fault - Page 2

Habakkuk21 · 09-04-2005, 04:27 PM

With respect to preparing for emergencies:
I don't think the breakdown came from emergency groups not realizing that there could be a disaster. Based on my own experience with disaster/crisis preparations, the solution just took up too many resources for the plan to be accepted by the decision makers. Consider just ONE aspect: evacuation. The evacuation required a LOT of transport- who was going to authorize it's purchase? Perhaps there might have been better use made of existing transport, like school buses, public transportation buses, etc. Who was going to demand that the school board be required to make the buses available, and to get the bus drivers trained in the evacuation routes? That costs MONEY, and unless the drivers are trained, in advance, and have security provided, then it won't work.
There must be a commitment made, not just a plan. It's awfully hard to accept the costs of preparedness. It's actually much easier to wait until the dam is busted and blame somebody else for the destruction and death. I don't know if it's more cost-effective for the community or not, but for the individual politician, program manager, or citizen, the cost of ramming through a crisis preparedness program is a lot greater than the cost of letting the sky fall.

Big Dog · 09-04-2005, 05:55 PM

Speaking of available transportation, have y'all seen the pic of the hundreds of shiny new New Orleans school buses sitting in a flooded parking lot, ruined?
Why the heck didn't Hizzoner call in the drivers and get those things moving into the neighborhoods - load 'em up and haul buggy to safety!?

I guess he was waiting on Mr. Bush to send in the drivers from a northern state.

When the event draws to a close, and the long-term projects begin (whatever they are . . . ) - I hope to see the danged Mayor brought up on charges. Incompetence. Corruption. Manslaughter. Felony greed and stupidity. That'll do for a starter.

The La. Governor has got some 'splainin' to do too.

rebel727 · 09-04-2005, 06:06 PM

When was he supposed to send those shiny new busses in? He put out a mandatory evacuation. Who was going to drive those shiny new busses with a cat 5 hurricane coming? The roads were bumper to bumper before the evac was called till Katrina hit.

Sniper[MI] · 09-04-2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel727

When was he supposed to send those shiny new busses in? He put out a mandatory evacuation. Who was going to drive those shiny new busses with a cat 5 hurricane coming? The roads were bumper to bumper before the evac was called till Katrina hit.

The captain of a greek ocean liner also put out a manditory Abandon Ship as he and his crew jumped in a lifeboat and took off too....

I'd bet many would have driven those busses, most were trying to leave ya know....

But then this smacks more to the point of, people in city Govt and those entrusted to protect and serve have to do a little more than announce, that everyone must leave. I know more was done than that, but not much in the grand scheme of things.

It also amazes me how many people believe the Govt should have had hundreds of thousands of people sitting in planes, trucks, choppers and boats, just ready to swoop in at moments notice.....

It is called a natural disaster for a reason......

And remember this is an area the size of England that is affected, not just New Orleans....

Just a thought...

tommy · 09-04-2005, 10:42 PM

where were those busses supose to go with those people??saturday most raods were already backing up and sunday forget it you wasn't gonna go anyplace with them busses .atleast not rounding up people.the streets were to conjested tor them to do it and if he would have tried to do it earlier they would have said no because they would not have know if the storm was comin our way or not. i tried to leave my house and go west on hwy90 but the trafic was backed up from past my house all the way to laffeyette cars were pulling over because they were running out of gas and the people were leavin them there and jumpin in other peoples cars for rides. i turned around after 1hour and came back home this was at 10:00 on sunday in the morning.the mayor of new orleans had come on tv saturday night and said that he was going to issue a manditory evacuation sunday morning but that he could not do it that night because of some legal reasons but as soon they showed the news that night on saturday the roads started packin up.

//

tommy · 09-04-2005, 11:01 PM

(It also amazes me how many people believe the Govt should have had hundreds of thousands of people sitting in planes, trucks, choppers and boats, just ready to swoop in at moments notice.....)

you !!!! right we exspect it it's called takin care of your people . what would have happened if it would have been a terrorist attack?????? i guess we know now don't we good old george bush ain't gonna be there now will he. maybe the next disaster will be in your town and you can ask yourself why ain't they sending someone? and then you can look back at your post and say oh i didn't exspect them to show up anyway. why if we can show up at a monent's notice in another counrty to fight them and to help them we can't even showup at a moments notice in our own country to help our own people. how much food did we fly accroos the world over night to afganistan but it took days to get it a few states down south. when the trade cennters got attacked the president just sat there for minutes juts sitting there .now for this disaster he went to a !!!! bbq the day the storm hit .why wasn't he bussy getting the trucks and food and supplys movin WHY!!!! you know the first sighn of suport we seen down here was a walmart truck convoy i didn't see any fema trucks for atleast 3 days. so don't you dare go blamin this on us down here we all know who is to blame i just hope he enjoyed that steak he was eatin while his AMERICAN PEOPLE were dieing .

tommy · 09-04-2005, 11:11 PM

you know i'm agravated did you guys know that those kids and people of new orleans donated a fire truck to new york i think maybe even two trucks to new york after 9.11 but did they say well yall shouldn't have biuilt them biuldning so big and this wouldn't have happened no they didn't they gave the money but now it looks like they are getting ragged out by everybody. i don't mean all of you but some of you need to go and get a realitycheck this is americans your talkin aboutand good peopleif you can't make a good coment then don't make one at all.because ethey have been through enough. this is not menat for everyone becaus enot everyone is so mean and cruel but some of you need to have a heart becaus ethis can be you one day.

Sniper[MI] · 09-04-2005, 11:44 PM

Okay, let's calm down here a second. It is not my intention to sit here and fight with you.

However, what if we re direct the tone here and look to what can be done now, and what can be done in the future.

No, I can never be in a hurricane here, blizzard, yes. Ice Storm from !!!!, yes. Tornado, yes. Everyone lives where something can and does happen. However, I will not deviate from what I have said about many people, not just in Louisianna, many people across this land are not prepared themselves. For any disaster.

You have done well and stocked up as conditions would allow, but face it Tommy, you are far ahead of the average American in that respect.

As to the readyness, did anyone have these questions beforehand? I sure didn't. And without drawing out a fight, what amount of time for federal aide to roll in would be acceptable?

I too think FEMA took a while to get in there, but FEMA says they had folks on the ground within a day. I think we will both agree that massing help would have been a smart move to make, a few days before landfall. But think about it, all the red tape and !!!! about who's gonna pay for what and the like...then there is the scream that the Govt is burn taxpayers dollars.

Also when I commented on swoop in at a moments notice, I meant that thought is prevalent in most major cities most of the time, not specifically to something that is coming and most people know it for 36 hours to a week.

It seems like a !!!!ed if they do and !!!!ed if they don't scenario.

Also, in reading more on tjhis, part of the problem with New Orleans is all the communications and such went out from much of the stuff being located below sea level. There is a lot of other speculating going on too, but only time will show what went wrong.

My whole focus in my comments has been always with my heart towards the people trapped by the storm through other reasons than their own. A lot of people could not get out in time, and that is a fact.

Let's focus on the here and now, and see what we all can do. Also lets see what we all can do about preventing the collapse of authority and communication in the future.

But then what do I really know, I wasn't down there like you and yours are. Yes I have a few friends down that way, and yes they have all made it known they are alright. But you are there.

All any of us have to go buy is the completely negative news media and what we here on these sites, and from friends.

tommy · 09-04-2005, 11:56 PM

fema lied !!! they were not here and they were not in miss.the mayor was asking every one with an extra seat in thier car to bring some one with thim . he was asking the churches to ues thier buses to help with the evacuation of the city.we were let down from the man higher up.

Sniper[MI] · 09-05-2005, 12:01 AM

Gee a Govt Agency lying? Go figure....

It's late, and I am hoping you are up late cause you are a night owl like me and not due to having to be up to protect the homestead.........

And I am serious, what's the next step here?

Full MeTal Jack · 09-05-2005, 12:36 PM

Where the heck does this idea of "at a moments notice" come from?
I work for a limited government entity. It's takes months of planning to plan for the the next five years.
Our boy scout troop, it takes a year to get 30 scout and scouters to BWCA, Boundry Water Canoe Area.

Kinda like driving into work, everyone zooms past me just to get in line and stop at the traffic jam. Multiply that by the size on Enland.

tommy · 09-05-2005, 12:41 PM

it's too late people have died for n reason at all!!! there is no next step .where was the supplys when we needed themand i'm not talkin about just louisiana i'm talkin about miss. too. we were left out and until it happens too you you won't understand .this so called president bush seems to be good at starting wars but as for talkin care of his people :smash: :smash: :smash: i don't think so i hope this opens up alot of peoples eyes as to what kind of person we have in the white house . oh!i'm sorry crawford ranch .maybe if he would have been doing his job alot less people would have died. sure we can sit here and say what the mayor or govennor should have done before the storm but it's what happened after the storm that killed alot of people. for those of you old enough to remember huricane betsy or camile i forgot wich one but after it hit nixon had the whole !!!! calvery in here with food and water the next day!!!!why was our leader at a bbq instead of makin sure his people were safe??????????? it's sad it really is. after this ther is nuthin you can say to me that would make me believe that bush would be there in our time of need(atleast not for a week). i'm sorry guys you probably don't understand where i'm comin from and you never will (GOD i hope you never will) and for those of you from the south that have been hit by the storm good luck we are all in this together and we will get by one wat or another.

09-04-2005, 04:27 PM	#21
Habakkuk21 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 173	With respect to preparing for emergencies: I don't think the breakdown came from emergency groups not realizing that there could be a disaster. Based on my own experience with disaster/crisis preparations, the solution just took up too many resources for the plan to be accepted by the decision makers. Consider just ONE aspect: evacuation. The evacuation required a LOT of transport- who was going to authorize it's purchase? Perhaps there might have been better use made of existing transport, like school buses, public transportation buses, etc. Who was going to demand that the school board be required to make the buses available, and to get the bus drivers trained in the evacuation routes? That costs MONEY, and unless the drivers are trained, in advance, and have security provided, then it won't work. There must be a commitment made, not just a plan. It's awfully hard to accept the costs of preparedness. It's actually much easier to wait until the dam is busted and blame somebody else for the destruction and death. I don't know if it's more cost-effective for the community or not, but for the individual politician, program manager, or citizen, the cost of ramming through a crisis preparedness program is a lot greater than the cost of letting the sky fall. __________________ Greetings from Woodstock, GA, cultural center of the universe.

09-04-2005, 05:55 PM	#22
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,219	Speaking of available transportation, have y'all seen the pic of the hundreds of shiny new New Orleans school buses sitting in a flooded parking lot, ruined? Why the heck didn't Hizzoner call in the drivers and get those things moving into the neighborhoods - load 'em up and haul buggy to safety!? I guess he was waiting on Mr. Bush to send in the drivers from a northern state. When the event draws to a close, and the long-term projects begin (whatever they are . . . ) - I hope to see the danged Mayor brought up on charges. Incompetence. Corruption. Manslaughter. Felony greed and stupidity. That'll do for a starter. The La. Governor has got some 'splainin' to do too. __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

09-04-2005, 06:06 PM	#23
rebel727 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Heidelberg, Mississippi Posts: 1,549	When was he supposed to send those shiny new busses in? He put out a mandatory evacuation. Who was going to drive those shiny new busses with a cat 5 hurricane coming? The roads were bumper to bumper before the evac was called till Katrina hit. __________________ North-1 South-0 HALFTIME!

09-04-2005, 11:44 PM	#28
Sniper[MI] Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Future 51st state, "New Hope" Posts: 3,796	Okay, let's calm down here a second. It is not my intention to sit here and fight with you. However, what if we re direct the tone here and look to what can be done now, and what can be done in the future. No, I can never be in a hurricane here, blizzard, yes. Ice Storm from !!!!, yes. Tornado, yes. Everyone lives where something can and does happen. However, I will not deviate from what I have said about many people, not just in Louisianna, many people across this land are not prepared themselves. For any disaster. You have done well and stocked up as conditions would allow, but face it Tommy, you are far ahead of the average American in that respect. As to the readyness, did anyone have these questions beforehand? I sure didn't. And without drawing out a fight, what amount of time for federal aide to roll in would be acceptable? I too think FEMA took a while to get in there, but FEMA says they had folks on the ground within a day. I think we will both agree that massing help would have been a smart move to make, a few days before landfall. But think about it, all the red tape and !!!! about who's gonna pay for what and the like...then there is the scream that the Govt is burn taxpayers dollars. Also when I commented on swoop in at a moments notice, I meant that thought is prevalent in most major cities most of the time, not specifically to something that is coming and most people know it for 36 hours to a week. It seems like a !!!!ed if they do and !!!!ed if they don't scenario. Also, in reading more on tjhis, part of the problem with New Orleans is all the communications and such went out from much of the stuff being located below sea level. There is a lot of other speculating going on too, but only time will show what went wrong. My whole focus in my comments has been always with my heart towards the people trapped by the storm through other reasons than their own. A lot of people could not get out in time, and that is a fact. Let's focus on the here and now, and see what we all can do. Also lets see what we all can do about preventing the collapse of authority and communication in the future. But then what do I really know, I wasn't down there like you and yours are. Yes I have a few friends down that way, and yes they have all made it known they are alright. But you are there. All any of us have to go buy is the completely negative news media and what we here on these sites, and from friends. __________________ FNUH! Last edited by Sniper[MI]; 09-04-2005 at 11:54 PM.

09-05-2005, 12:01 AM	#30
Sniper[MI] Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Future 51st state, "New Hope" Posts: 3,796	Gee a Govt Agency lying? Go figure.... It's late, and I am hoping you are up late cause you are a night owl like me and not due to having to be up to protect the homestead......... And I am serious, what's the next step here? __________________ FNUH!

09-04-2005, 10:42 PM	#25
tommy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: schriever la Posts: 4,034 Images: 6	where were those busses supose to go with those people??saturday most raods were already backing up and sunday forget it you wasn't gonna go anyplace with them busses .atleast not rounding up people.the streets were to conjested tor them to do it and if he would have tried to do it earlier they would have said no because they would not have know if the storm was comin our way or not. i tried to leave my house and go west on hwy90 but the trafic was backed up from past my house all the way to laffeyette cars were pulling over because they were running out of gas and the people were leavin them there and jumpin in other peoples cars for rides. i turned around after 1hour and came back home this was at 10:00 on sunday in the morning.the mayor of new orleans had come on tv saturday night and said that he was going to issue a manditory evacuation sunday morning but that he could not do it that night because of some legal reasons but as soon they showed the news that night on saturday the roads started packin up. //

09-04-2005, 11:01 PM	#26
tommy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: schriever la Posts: 4,034 Images: 6	(It also amazes me how many people believe the Govt should have had hundreds of thousands of people sitting in planes, trucks, choppers and boats, just ready to swoop in at moments notice.....) you !!!! right we exspect it it's called takin care of your people . what would have happened if it would have been a terrorist attack?????? i guess we know now don't we good old george bush ain't gonna be there now will he. maybe the next disaster will be in your town and you can ask yourself why ain't they sending someone? and then you can look back at your post and say oh i didn't exspect them to show up anyway. why if we can show up at a monent's notice in another counrty to fight them and to help them we can't even showup at a moments notice in our own country to help our own people. how much food did we fly accroos the world over night to afganistan but it took days to get it a few states down south. when the trade cennters got attacked the president just sat there for minutes juts sitting there .now for this disaster he went to a !!!! bbq the day the storm hit .why wasn't he bussy getting the trucks and food and supplys movin WHY!!!! you know the first sighn of suport we seen down here was a walmart truck convoy i didn't see any fema trucks for atleast 3 days. so don't you dare go blamin this on us down here we all know who is to blame i just hope he enjoyed that steak he was eatin while his AMERICAN PEOPLE were dieing .

09-04-2005, 11:11 PM	#27
tommy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: schriever la Posts: 4,034 Images: 6	you know i'm agravated did you guys know that those kids and people of new orleans donated a fire truck to new york i think maybe even two trucks to new york after 9.11 but did they say well yall shouldn't have biuilt them biuldning so big and this wouldn't have happened no they didn't they gave the money but now it looks like they are getting ragged out by everybody. i don't mean all of you but some of you need to go and get a realitycheck this is americans your talkin aboutand good peopleif you can't make a good coment then don't make one at all.because ethey have been through enough. this is not menat for everyone becaus enot everyone is so mean and cruel but some of you need to have a heart becaus ethis can be you one day.

09-04-2005, 11:56 PM	#29
tommy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: schriever la Posts: 4,034 Images: 6	fema lied !!! they were not here and they were not in miss.the mayor was asking every one with an extra seat in thier car to bring some one with thim . he was asking the churches to ues thier buses to help with the evacuation of the city.we were let down from the man higher up.

09-05-2005, 12:36 PM	#31
Full MeTal Jack Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 1,427 Images: 1	Where the heck does this idea of "at a moments notice" come from? I work for a limited government entity. It's takes months of planning to plan for the the next five years. Our boy scout troop, it takes a year to get 30 scout and scouters to BWCA, Boundry Water Canoe Area. Kinda like driving into work, everyone zooms past me just to get in line and stop at the traffic jam. Multiply that by the size on Enland. __________________ [IMG]http://img287.echo.cx/img287/63/9130110x100a4vb.jpg

09-05-2005, 12:41 PM	#32
tommy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: schriever la Posts: 4,034 Images: 6	it's too late people have died for n reason at all!!! there is no next step .where was the supplys when we needed themand i'm not talkin about just louisiana i'm talkin about miss. too. we were left out and until it happens too you you won't understand .this so called president bush seems to be good at starting wars but as for talkin care of his people :smash: :smash: :smash: i don't think so i hope this opens up alot of peoples eyes as to what kind of person we have in the white house . oh!i'm sorry crawford ranch .maybe if he would have been doing his job alot less people would have died. sure we can sit here and say what the mayor or govennor should have done before the storm but it's what happened after the storm that killed alot of people. for those of you old enough to remember huricane betsy or camile i forgot wich one but after it hit nixon had the whole !!!! calvery in here with food and water the next day!!!!why was our leader at a bbq instead of makin sure his people were safe??????????? it's sad it really is. after this ther is nuthin you can say to me that would make me believe that bush would be there in our time of need(atleast not for a week). i'm sorry guys you probably don't understand where i'm comin from and you never will (GOD i hope you never will) and for those of you from the south that have been hit by the storm good luck we are all in this together and we will get by one wat or another.