Ruby Ridge Revisited - Page 2

BenP · 05-28-2002, 01:19 PM

Some of the ideas in the diary are familiar, and some prompt me to re-think previous plans. I do not care at all for the racist overtones throughout the article. It also skews the arguments in some cases, which detracts from the issue a lot.

It should have been written without the racism. It would have been better accepted by the mainstream.

Jesse · 05-28-2002, 03:01 PM

Guys I think if you do your research on the Turner Diaries, you will find that it is THE book for the Aryan movement in the US. It is quite different than Unintended Consequences, the recent book that is garnering such attention. The path of McVeigh coincides very closely with the book. The author of the Turner Diaries (writing under the name Andrew Mc Donald) is Dr. William Pierce former head of the American Nazi Party.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9704/28/okc/

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/t14.html

Jesse

Klaus · 05-28-2002, 03:57 PM

A Neo-NAZI wrote a book DENOUNCING jack booted thugs, gun control, and a tyrannical government? BEAM ME UP, ASAP!

Doglips · 05-28-2002, 05:56 PM

Just read it....it was writen in 1980...early 80s and predicted more of a forced politicaly correct anti-gun goverment....resulting in whites revolting..over throwing the world....Im dreaming of a white xmass ending.....someof the "secret" tecnology described is what we call a pager now days but it lets you see what people are thinking that may / may not have the same orientation and view of the world that you (I) may have..... I read it because all the hopla about McVeigh read it and was the bases of his attack...I got my copy from my Rabbi who read it to see what the Neo-Nazi were saying... Not a long book...not well writen.. (I mean I spoted some spelling errors).

Rave · 05-28-2002, 10:21 PM

Yeah I saw the movie,those Federal Marshals that got the medals for heroism,barf,yeah they sure were a bunch of heros,sit two days in the **** rain without a shot being fired because they were afraid to move,yeah,they sure were the cream of the crock.To give them medals for bravery degrades our real men,I found the whole thing to be disgusting.
Gummint running amok under Reno!

alan c. · 05-29-2002, 04:33 AM

Klaus: Jessie and the others are right on with their comments on the Turner diaries. Let me stress--These are not my views. It's worth a read anyway.

Klaus · 05-29-2002, 06:06 AM

I was not saying Jesse was wrong, I was just amazed a NAZI would write a book like that. I am strongly opposed to far Left Wing groups such as the Communists and Nazis and even more so racist groups such as Aryan Nation, Black Panthers, KKK, and the Nation of Islam. BTW, I consider anyone advocating racial discrimination as racist, with the exception of real medical differences such as suceptibility to sickle cell anemia, etc.

Hank Springer · 05-29-2002, 09:39 AM

People, that's the way things go with the government. They do what they wish and are protected by the media. The worst example is there involvement in the Oklahoma City bombing. No one but McVeigh paid in that case.

alan c. · 05-29-2002, 03:20 PM

Klaus: Let me back up it has been a few years since I have read the book and Jessie knows more than I do about the history of the author. I am not saying you thought Jessie was wrong. Actually it was my fault addressing my comment to you, a mistake I assure you. What was I thinking ... The beam me up response, I agree with. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

05-31-2002, 06:00 PM

Randy Weaver and David Koresh were both criminals. They were (are) delusioned and stupid. Koresh was a child rapist and he and his people executed their own people when the **** hit the fan. They were both completely responsible for what happened. They were both presented with opportunities to submit to authorities. They both chose not to. Look what happened. The mistakes made by law enforcement would have never happened if these lunatics followed the laws.

Klaus · 05-31-2002, 06:24 PM

Lenny, exactly what crime do you claim Weaver commited? And what evidence do you have against Koresh? It has already been PROVEN that the BATF falsified most of the "evidence" they used to get the warrant and broke several other laws AND that they were the ones who opened fire. It was also the feds who "accidently" cut the phone line when they were supposed to be delivering the ultimatum. It was also the Feds who accidently destroyed the most of the exits and stairwells first, trapping the people in the buildings. And of course, afterwards the government quickly bulldozed everything to destroy the evidence. There were \NO .50 cal machine guns, NO explosives, and a grand total ot two parts kits that could have been used to convert two rifles to full auto. No actual live grenades or fully automatic weapons were found. Just two practice grenades and a bunch of legal rifles. No evidence of child molestation either.

alan c. · 06-01-2002, 07:53 AM

As far as submitting to authorities--why-- what was the crime, and let's not forget the illegal involvement of the military at Waco.

06-05-2002, 02:12 PM

Just do a google search for : Koresh + Rape, Koresh + Molest. Here is just one of many examples: http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco4.html
Also do a search for Koresh + tapes, or Koresh + recordings. You can listen to him justify to his people rape and murder from quoting the bible. Koresh is solely responsible for the death of every person in that compund. If he had done nothing wrong, he should have worked the system to his advantage. When the nasty standoff started he should have released the children. At least they would have been saved. Have you read any of the reporst regarding the fact that him and his people used flammable liquids to soak their compound and themselves?

Rave · 06-05-2002, 02:40 PM

Well,there are always at least two sides to any story and without getting into a fight with any one I feel we can all agree that for better or worse,after the Oklahoma City bombing the government went from overt to semi-covert attempts at destroying our rights.Can we agree on that?:nod: :nod: :nod:

Klaus · 06-05-2002, 04:05 PM

Yes Lenny all those hits on Google come from the exact same source, which may or may not be accurate. Here is one of the many other links about the affair. http://www.salon.com/april97/waco970418.html

BenP · 06-05-2002, 05:27 PM

Ever hear the term two wrongs do not a right make? The government is not entitled to use the excuse that someone else is breaking the law so that they themselves may also break the law. No one on this site ever said that they supported or endorsed Koresh, Weaver, or any other person that may or may not have individually broken the law. What the majority of us are saying is that it is wrong for the government to circumvent the law to enforce its will on any citizen of the US.

Koresh and Weaver are not solely responsible for the loss of life. The government idiots who thought they could control the situation with force and intimidation are also responsible, and have not been held accountable. Justice must be balanced. Right now, the scales are tipped in favor of tyranny.

BTW, if the agents hadn't tried to entrap Weaver into doing their dirty work for them, that whole situation would never have occured.

06-05-2002, 05:40 PM

I counted about 10 sources. But anyways, I like how the man who made the documentary skirts the issue or raping children by stating that it has nothing to do with it. I have heard his lecture that includes him justifying raping of women. I am searching google for them now. I will post them if I find them. There were also kits found to convert rifles to full auto. How many were already converted and sold to others? Who knows, but he was undoubtably a criminal. He refused to surrender to law enforcement. Where I come from, that is a crime. Putting children in an environment where great harm is a great possibility is a crime.

BenP · 06-05-2002, 05:52 PM

I'd agree that rape and possessing full-auto firearms without an appropriate license are illegal. So is issuing orders to shoot on sight, including women and children. So is deliberately starting a fire in a confined space occupied by non-combatants. So is soliciting a private citizen to commit a felony.

Klaus · 06-05-2002, 06:33 PM

The 10 sources all go back to the same testimony of a 12 year old who had been in the custody of her father who HATED his Ex-Wife and Koresh. Kiri also got richly rewarded whenever she said anything against her mother or Koresh. Now, the may have been some truth to her allegations, though I would not say it was an iron clad case. My point was that there was NO new, urgent evidence to prompt the attack by the BATF, which was WAY out of it's jurisdiction and after the fact, there was not further evidence found to support the lies the BATF told before and during the raid. There was no kiddy porn, or other physical evidence of molestation. There was no stockpile of explosives. No functional handgrenades. No cannons or other "destructive devices". No .50 BMG machine guns or functioning fully automatic weapons (2 illegal parts kits were found). The BATF went out of it's way to circumvent local Law enforcement while inviting media people. Then, when things went south, they confiscated and apparently destroyed the tapes. After Koresh was dead, the feds RAPIDLY destroyed evidence, and somehow, almost all the government videotapes ended up blank.

Rave · 06-06-2002, 01:38 AM

yeah!sounds like one of those "Kill 'em all and let God sort "em out deals....we're from the gummint,we're here to help!Yeah,right!:nod: :nod: :nod:

05-28-2002, 03:01 PM	#22
Jesse Administrator Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,945 Trader Rating: (0)	Guys I think if you do your research on the Turner Diaries, you will find that it is THE book for the Aryan movement in the US. It is quite different than Unintended Consequences, the recent book that is garnering such attention. The path of McVeigh coincides very closely with the book. The author of the Turner Diaries (writing under the name Andrew Mc Donald) is Dr. William Pierce former head of the American Nazi Party. http://www.cnn.com/US/9704/28/okc/ http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/t14.html Jesse __________________ Jesse www.gunandgame.com

05-28-2002, 03:57 PM	#23
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383 Trader Rating: (0)	A Neo-NAZI wrote a book DENOUNCING jack booted thugs, gun control, and a tyrannical government? BEAM ME UP, ASAP! __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

05-28-2002, 10:21 PM	#25
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 6,735 Trader Rating: (0)	Yeah I saw the movie,those Federal Marshals that got the medals for heroism,barf,yeah they sure were a bunch of heros,sit two days in the **** rain without a shot being fired because they were afraid to move,yeah,they sure were the cream of the crock.To give them medals for bravery degrades our real men,I found the whole thing to be disgusting. Gummint running amok under Reno! __________________ USAF '62-'66 .

05-29-2002, 04:33 AM	#26
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,757 Trader Rating: (0)	Klaus: Jessie and the others are right on with their comments on the Turner diaries. Let me stress--These are not my views. It's worth a read anyway. __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas.

05-29-2002, 06:06 AM	#27
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383 Trader Rating: (0)	I was not saying Jesse was wrong, I was just amazed a NAZI would write a book like that. I am strongly opposed to far Left Wing groups such as the Communists and Nazis and even more so racist groups such as Aryan Nation, Black Panthers, KKK, and the Nation of Islam. BTW, I consider anyone advocating racial discrimination as racist, with the exception of real medical differences such as suceptibility to sickle cell anemia, etc. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

05-28-2002, 01:19 PM	#21
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395 Trader Rating: (0)	Some of the ideas in the diary are familiar, and some prompt me to re-think previous plans. I do not care at all for the racist overtones throughout the article. It also skews the arguments in some cases, which detracts from the issue a lot. It should have been written without the racism. It would have been better accepted by the mainstream.

05-28-2002, 05:56 PM	#24
Doglips Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cocoa Florida Posts: 9,090 Trader Rating: (0)	Just read it....it was writen in 1980...early 80s and predicted more of a forced politicaly correct anti-gun goverment....resulting in whites revolting..over throwing the world....Im dreaming of a white xmass ending.....someof the "secret" tecnology described is what we call a pager now days but it lets you see what people are thinking that may / may not have the same orientation and view of the world that you (I) may have..... I read it because all the hopla about McVeigh read it and was the bases of his attack...I got my copy from my Rabbi who read it to see what the Neo-Nazi were saying... Not a long book...not well writen.. (I mean I spoted some spelling errors).

05-29-2002, 09:39 AM	#28
Hank Springer Founding Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Lauderdale County, Mississippi Posts: 150 Trader Rating: (0)	Hank People, that's the way things go with the government. They do what they wish and are protected by the media. The worst example is there involvement in the Oklahoma City bombing. No one but McVeigh paid in that case. __________________ Hank

05-29-2002, 03:20 PM	#29
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,757 Trader Rating: (0)	Klaus: Let me back up it has been a few years since I have read the book and Jessie knows more than I do about the history of the author. I am not saying you thought Jessie was wrong. Actually it was my fault addressing my comment to you, a mistake I assure you. What was I thinking ... The beam me up response, I agree with. It's like the pot calling the kettle black. __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas. Last edited by alan c.; 05-29-2002 at 03:26 PM.

05-31-2002, 06:00 PM	#30
Lenny Guest Posts: n/a	This is making me sick Randy Weaver and David Koresh were both criminals. They were (are) delusioned and stupid. Koresh was a child rapist and he and his people executed their own people when the **** hit the fan. They were both completely responsible for what happened. They were both presented with opportunities to submit to authorities. They both chose not to. Look what happened. The mistakes made by law enforcement would have never happened if these lunatics followed the laws.

05-31-2002, 06:24 PM	#31
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383 Trader Rating: (0)	Lenny, exactly what crime do you claim Weaver commited? And what evidence do you have against Koresh? It has already been PROVEN that the BATF falsified most of the "evidence" they used to get the warrant and broke several other laws AND that they were the ones who opened fire. It was also the feds who "accidently" cut the phone line when they were supposed to be delivering the ultimatum. It was also the Feds who accidently destroyed the most of the exits and stairwells first, trapping the people in the buildings. And of course, afterwards the government quickly bulldozed everything to destroy the evidence. There were \NO .50 cal machine guns, NO explosives, and a grand total ot two parts kits that could have been used to convert two rifles to full auto. No actual live grenades or fully automatic weapons were found. Just two practice grenades and a bunch of legal rifles. No evidence of child molestation either. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

06-01-2002, 07:53 AM	#32
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,757 Trader Rating: (0)	As far as submitting to authorities--why-- what was the crime, and let's not forget the illegal involvement of the military at Waco. __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas. Last edited by alan c.; 06-02-2002 at 06:17 PM.

06-05-2002, 02:12 PM	#33
Lenny Guest Posts: n/a	Evidence Just do a google search for : Koresh + Rape, Koresh + Molest. Here is just one of many examples: http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco4.html Also do a search for Koresh + tapes, or Koresh + recordings. You can listen to him justify to his people rape and murder from quoting the bible. Koresh is solely responsible for the death of every person in that compund. If he had done nothing wrong, he should have worked the system to his advantage. When the nasty standoff started he should have released the children. At least they would have been saved. Have you read any of the reporst regarding the fact that him and his people used flammable liquids to soak their compound and themselves?

06-05-2002, 02:40 PM	#34
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 6,735 Trader Rating: (0)	Well,there are always at least two sides to any story and without getting into a fight with any one I feel we can all agree that for better or worse,after the Oklahoma City bombing the government went from overt to semi-covert attempts at destroying our rights.Can we agree on that?:nod: :nod: :nod: __________________ USAF '62-'66 .

06-05-2002, 04:05 PM	#35
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383 Trader Rating: (0)	Yes Lenny all those hits on Google come from the exact same source, which may or may not be accurate. Here is one of the many other links about the affair. http://www.salon.com/april97/waco970418.html __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

06-05-2002, 05:27 PM	#36
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395 Trader Rating: (0)	Ever hear the term two wrongs do not a right make? The government is not entitled to use the excuse that someone else is breaking the law so that they themselves may also break the law. No one on this site ever said that they supported or endorsed Koresh, Weaver, or any other person that may or may not have individually broken the law. What the majority of us are saying is that it is wrong for the government to circumvent the law to enforce its will on any citizen of the US. Koresh and Weaver are not solely responsible for the loss of life. The government idiots who thought they could control the situation with force and intimidation are also responsible, and have not been held accountable. Justice must be balanced. Right now, the scales are tipped in favor of tyranny. BTW, if the agents hadn't tried to entrap Weaver into doing their dirty work for them, that whole situation would never have occured.

06-05-2002, 05:40 PM	#37
Lenny Guest Posts: n/a	more than one source I counted about 10 sources. But anyways, I like how the man who made the documentary skirts the issue or raping children by stating that it has nothing to do with it. I have heard his lecture that includes him justifying raping of women. I am searching google for them now. I will post them if I find them. There were also kits found to convert rifles to full auto. How many were already converted and sold to others? Who knows, but he was undoubtably a criminal. He refused to surrender to law enforcement. Where I come from, that is a crime. Putting children in an environment where great harm is a great possibility is a crime.

06-05-2002, 05:52 PM	#38
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395 Trader Rating: (0)	I'd agree that rape and possessing full-auto firearms without an appropriate license are illegal. So is issuing orders to shoot on sight, including women and children. So is deliberately starting a fire in a confined space occupied by non-combatants. So is soliciting a private citizen to commit a felony. Last edited by BenP; 06-05-2002 at 05:57 PM.

06-05-2002, 06:33 PM	#39
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383 Trader Rating: (0)	The 10 sources all go back to the same testimony of a 12 year old who had been in the custody of her father who HATED his Ex-Wife and Koresh. Kiri also got richly rewarded whenever she said anything against her mother or Koresh. Now, the may have been some truth to her allegations, though I would not say it was an iron clad case. My point was that there was NO new, urgent evidence to prompt the attack by the BATF, which was WAY out of it's jurisdiction and after the fact, there was not further evidence found to support the lies the BATF told before and during the raid. There was no kiddy porn, or other physical evidence of molestation. There was no stockpile of explosives. No functional handgrenades. No cannons or other "destructive devices". No .50 BMG machine guns or functioning fully automatic weapons (2 illegal parts kits were found). The BATF went out of it's way to circumvent local Law enforcement while inviting media people. Then, when things went south, they confiscated and apparently destroyed the tapes. After Koresh was dead, the feds RAPIDLY destroyed evidence, and somehow, almost all the government videotapes ended up blank. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!" Last edited by Klaus; 06-06-2002 at 09:26 AM.

06-06-2002, 01:38 AM	#40
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 6,735 Trader Rating: (0)	yeah!sounds like one of those "Kill 'em all and let God sort "em out deals....we're from the gummint,we're here to help!Yeah,right!:nod: :nod: :nod: __________________ USAF '62-'66 .