Ruby Ridge Revisited

BenP · 05-26-2002, 03:24 AM

I just got done watching the docudrama again about the Weaver family vs. the Feds. Makes me mad every time I see the end. The feds never once admitted any guilt. In fact, they gave the marshals that shot Randy's son the medals of the highest honor. All because he was trying to protect his dog.

The whole story just stinks. Everything the feds did in the situation was wrong. They actually issued orders to shoot on sight! This despite not being fired on again after Weaver Jr. was killed.

Time makes things like this just fade away. No one ever paid the price for the feds mistakes, except the Weavers. We got to make sure this doesn't keep happening in this country.

NRAJOE · 05-26-2002, 03:28 AM

I READ THE BOOK BUT NEVER SEEN THE DOCUDRAMA. THE WHOLE THING STUNK AND THAT WAS HORRIBLE WHAT THEY DONE TO HIS SON AND WIFE. FIRST TIME I WAS EVER ASHAMED OF OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCYS!

8mm Vigilante · 05-26-2002, 03:33 AM

"Time makes things like this just fade away. No one ever paid the price for the feds mistakes, except the Weavers. We got to make sure this doesn't keep happening in this country"

The only way to do that is to make the price for them just as high, as it would be for us in that situation, i.e. kill so many of them, that they'll think twice before they try to pull the same crap, with armed citizens.
It's no wonder they don't want us to have the same equipment as them (hi-cap mags, full auto, AP rounds, ect..)
it's time to fight back, they have no problems shooting us down with out a second thought, so as the old saying goes...
"What comes around, goes around."
-Jesse

JS44 · 05-26-2002, 07:22 AM

The state of Idaho did try to prosecute that FBI sniper, Horiuchi, but the federal government wouldn't allow it. It's like there's no accountability at all with them. I've heard that later attempts by the state were made but haven't heard anything as of late.

Chris · 05-26-2002, 10:01 AM

Well Randy Weaver, will be at a local Gun Show in June to promote his book....so I think since I will be there anyways I might get one and have him sign it, although he has very very strong views on things I disagree with, I am still debating about if I should get a book or not

Jesse · 05-26-2002, 11:22 AM

Gerry Spence was the lawyer I believe represented Weaver in court. He gave an incredible defense, one I think that all defense lawyers (of conservative persuasion, which today is a minority), should study, as well as all who wish to know how our Constitutional rights stand up in a court of law, (especially given the circumstances). I think that the state Weaver was in (Idaho), gave the opportunity for an unbiased or even a compliant view from the jury. Had this incident happened in New York or New Jersey do you honestly think the outcome would have been the same in court? This also is a reflection on how a geographical region of the US can sway for or against your Constitutional rights in a court of law. It has to do with the political views of the judge,(which I call bench legislation in the case of skewing Constitutional rights) and the knowledge of the citizens on the jury.

I agree with Chris, Weaver (as well as Koresh [sp?]), had some really extreme views that I do not agree with. I do however agree that their rights were violated GREATLY by our government, with loss of life that will never recieve due justice. It is our job to study these incidents and determine to what extent their rights were infringed and educate our families and friends. I support our federal, state, and local LE officers. These incidents are hardly the norm and a blanket judgement should not be cast upon the entire group. These incidents do however indicate just how we as Americans can have our rights violated by rouge, maverick, decisionmaking on the highest levels of government. I think it also reflects the loose policy, out-of-control nature of the Clinton Administration.

I encourage all members of this website to not let these incidents put a sour taste in your mouth toward LE officers. We still have the finest freedoms and LE in the world. I am one also to say that if you want to do away with the corruption in the LE community, you need not add more officers in a federal program, you need to pay the existing officers (on all levels), and future officers more money with more benefits. When LE careers are on par financially with upper level professional careers like lawyers and doctors, or at least as much as upper level civil servants in local, state, and federal government, you will truly gain the best there is to offer. Just think of the amount of lawyers, bankers, and accountants (CPA's) in the US, and now compare that number to the amount of LE officers on all levels. I don't have the stats, but I think the number would shock you.

Jesse

Doglips · 05-26-2002, 11:39 AM

Hay Chris Ill agree that wever has some strong opions..but as to buying the book..I find that reading diffrent points of view even extream can give me insight into people and how diffrent groups see the world. My Rabbi gave me his copy of "The Turner Diaries"...now that was deffitnly a extream point of view....but in some cases I found it confirmeing my beliefs and in others questioning some of mine...just my 2Cents worth.

BenP · 05-27-2002, 01:20 AM

It is true that the people mentioned did have extreme views not aligned with the public and that their rights were violated because of them. I would agree that in general we should support our law enforcement agents. They are there at our request, and they are paid by us to do a job. Conversely, I would also insist that every law enforcement agent exercise sound judgement in the commission of his duties. This includes questioning orders that are contrary to his primary function.

Unlike Joe private in the Army, John Law is paid to think and to understand what our rights as citizens are. If some bureaucrat starts giving orders that don't follow the line of reasoning for someone who must enforce the law, then the Lawman must question that order and seek to resolve those directions with the common understanding that men are innocent until proven guilty, and that his control over a given situation must be tempered with the knowledge that exercising tht control with the use of force must be justified by an apparent and realized threat. A lawman does not have the luxury of "shoot first, ask questions later".

The cases above were examples of poor judgement calls on behalf of the men who executed the order to take out the targets. Loss of life could easily have been avoided if just one man in each case had thought about what was going on. IMHO, life is mimicking art. Hollywood comes up with these fantastic plot twists where the righteous cop is always getting suckered by the poor bad guy feigning injury or helplessness. You watch that kind of thing, and you start thinking "Gee, I can't let that happen to me, I'd better be prepared for that kinda situation." The next thing you know, some cop's got his weapon drawn and his finger on the trigger pointing at some incidental passerby suddenly turned would be suspect who has no clue what's going on or that his life is about to end based on the next action he takes.

I'm not saying cops are bad people. I've got several friends in law enforcement. I'd be a nervous wreck if I were a cop. Too paranoid to trust anyone. That's my problem. What I'm saying is that Law Enforcement agents in general get told to do things by people who have no clue what's going on. Things they should not be told to do. They aren't trained like that. They're not soldiers, they're "Peace" officers. They are there to protect and to serve. They aren't tools for some policy making bureaucrat to enforce his will on us with. I hope that any LEO reading this knows just how much we the law abiding public are counting on him to do the right thing. LEOs are our first line of defense against a tyrannical government.

BenP · 05-27-2002, 01:24 AM

BTW, I think all of us ought to be paid more. I handle nuclear material, for Christ's sake. Do you want me at work worrying about my unpaid bills while I'm at the controls instead of watching the needles slowly move into the red?

Klaus · 05-27-2002, 05:50 AM

"The cases above were examples of poor judgement calls on behalf of the men who executed the order to take out the targets. Loss of life could easily have been avoided if just one man in each case had thought about what was going on"
Wrong. Both Ruby Ridge and Waco involved FRAUD on the part of the BATF to get the warrants in the first place. They deliberately missrepresented and altered statements of witnesses and falsified evidence. Then the BATF deliberately and illegally bypassed local Law Enforcement agencys, while calling in the media. There may have been poor judgement on the part of the FBI agents, but the BATF knew darned well what it was doing. So did Reno, in the final assault on Waco, where she claimed to take full responsibility, then said it was not her fault because she did not know they were going to attack with tanks, despite signing the order herself.

GoGop · 05-27-2002, 10:53 AM

Oklahoma City stopped them from this type of aggresion, and I don't think it would start back up unless another Socialist president like Clinton was to be elected.

Doglips · 05-27-2002, 01:12 PM

I once read a picture is worth a thousand words...hope this pic. post...got 2 of them so will post twice.

Doglips · 05-27-2002, 01:17 PM

I once read a picture is worth a thousand words...hope this pic. post...got 2 of them so will post twice.

alan c. · 05-27-2002, 01:19 PM

#2 That looks like something out of the Turner diaries.:assult:

Klaus · 05-27-2002, 05:03 PM

What are the Turner diaries?

BenP · 05-27-2002, 06:54 PM

Klaus, I think our arguments are complementary. I wholeheartedly agree that those who claimed to be in charge did unethical, immoral and illegal acts and committed fraud in so doing. What I'm saying is that all the officers standing around listening to the BS should've been wary enough to question such dubious and contradictory directions. The fact that not one of them stood up and called BS on the bureaucrats says that they were improperly trained as LEOs. Maybe that kind of act is appropriate for a Marine who is storming the bunker, but not for Law Enforcement agents, not any of them. Either that, or the bureaucrats have found themselves a good gaggle of idiot yes men to do their evil bidding. Of course, there's something we can do about that, too. A soldier makes a lousy cop, and a cop is no soldier.

Klaus · 05-27-2002, 10:35 PM

BenP. I agree. I still think Reno, the Clintons, Gore, et al, should be rotting in prison, at the minimum.

BenP · 05-28-2002, 10:21 AM

I would prefer something more permanent right now. Besides these fiascos we mentioned, they are responsible for the deaths of a lot of other good people.

What grave sins did we commit to get stuck with these people running the show? Oh yeah, greed, sloth, and apathy. Guess we got what we deserved (or rather, the Weavers and the Branch Davidians did). Funny, I don't remember supporting Clinton's platform or his campaign. As I recall, I voted against him and his regime twice. But then what do I know. Maybe I should've voted by other means.

Shaun · 05-28-2002, 10:32 AM

Klaus you are right that whole administration should be locked up and put in cells where they are forgotten

alan c. · 05-28-2002, 10:44 AM

Turner diaries, oh just one mans view into the future considering total gun control, jack booted thugs breaking down you door looking for firearms, underground organizations run by civilians trying to stay one step ahead of a totally out of control tyrannical government.--- That kind of stuff. Totally FICTIONAL. Or is it.
If you have a chance read it for fun only. This is not the type of literature Uncle Sam likes us to read.

05-26-2002, 03:24 AM	#1
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	Ruby Ridge Revisited I just got done watching the docudrama again about the Weaver family vs. the Feds. Makes me mad every time I see the end. The feds never once admitted any guilt. In fact, they gave the marshals that shot Randy's son the medals of the highest honor. All because he was trying to protect his dog. The whole story just stinks. Everything the feds did in the situation was wrong. They actually issued orders to shoot on sight! This despite not being fired on again after Weaver Jr. was killed. Time makes things like this just fade away. No one ever paid the price for the feds mistakes, except the Weavers. We got to make sure this doesn't keep happening in this country.

05-26-2002, 10:01 AM	#5
Chris HMFIC Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,834,259 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 20	Well Randy Weaver, will be at a local Gun Show in June to promote his book....so I think since I will be there anyways I might get one and have him sign it, although he has very very strong views on things I disagree with, I am still debating about if I should get a book or not __________________ Rules \| Contributing Members No one has the right to deny my personal safety Please be descriptive in your thread titles! NRA Life Member

05-26-2002, 11:22 AM	#6
Jesse Administrator Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 1,945 Images: 2	Gerry Spence was the lawyer I believe represented Weaver in court. He gave an incredible defense, one I think that all defense lawyers (of conservative persuasion, which today is a minority), should study, as well as all who wish to know how our Constitutional rights stand up in a court of law, (especially given the circumstances). I think that the state Weaver was in (Idaho), gave the opportunity for an unbiased or even a compliant view from the jury. Had this incident happened in New York or New Jersey do you honestly think the outcome would have been the same in court? This also is a reflection on how a geographical region of the US can sway for or against your Constitutional rights in a court of law. It has to do with the political views of the judge,(which I call bench legislation in the case of skewing Constitutional rights) and the knowledge of the citizens on the jury. I agree with Chris, Weaver (as well as Koresh [sp?]), had some really extreme views that I do not agree with. I do however agree that their rights were violated GREATLY by our government, with loss of life that will never recieve due justice. It is our job to study these incidents and determine to what extent their rights were infringed and educate our families and friends. I support our federal, state, and local LE officers. These incidents are hardly the norm and a blanket judgement should not be cast upon the entire group. These incidents do however indicate just how we as Americans can have our rights violated by rouge, maverick, decisionmaking on the highest levels of government. I think it also reflects the loose policy, out-of-control nature of the Clinton Administration. I encourage all members of this website to not let these incidents put a sour taste in your mouth toward LE officers. We still have the finest freedoms and LE in the world. I am one also to say that if you want to do away with the corruption in the LE community, you need not add more officers in a federal program, you need to pay the existing officers (on all levels), and future officers more money with more benefits. When LE careers are on par financially with upper level professional careers like lawyers and doctors, or at least as much as upper level civil servants in local, state, and federal government, you will truly gain the best there is to offer. Just think of the amount of lawyers, bankers, and accountants (CPA's) in the US, and now compare that number to the amount of LE officers on all levels. I don't have the stats, but I think the number would shock you. Jesse __________________ Jesse www.gunandgame.com

05-27-2002, 05:50 AM	#10
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,382	"The cases above were examples of poor judgement calls on behalf of the men who executed the order to take out the targets. Loss of life could easily have been avoided if just one man in each case had thought about what was going on" Wrong. Both Ruby Ridge and Waco involved FRAUD on the part of the BATF to get the warrants in the first place. They deliberately missrepresented and altered statements of witnesses and falsified evidence. Then the BATF deliberately and illegally bypassed local Law Enforcement agencys, while calling in the media. There may have been poor judgement on the part of the FBI agents, but the BATF knew darned well what it was doing. So did Reno, in the final assault on Waco, where she claimed to take full responsibility, then said it was not her fault because she did not know they were going to attack with tanks, despite signing the order herself. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

05-27-2002, 10:53 AM	#11
GoGop Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pacific, Mo Posts: 18	Oklahoma City stopped them from this type of aggresion, and I don't think it would start back up unless another Socialist president like Clinton was to be elected. __________________ NRA Life Member ruger44rules@aol.com

05-26-2002, 03:28 AM	#2
NRAJOE Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Toledo,OH Posts: 19,252 Images: 3	I READ THE BOOK BUT NEVER SEEN THE DOCUDRAMA. THE WHOLE THING STUNK AND THAT WAS HORRIBLE WHAT THEY DONE TO HIS SON AND WIFE. FIRST TIME I WAS EVER ASHAMED OF OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCYS! __________________ U.S. Army 1976-1979 237th Combat Engineers Heilbronn, Germany

05-26-2002, 03:33 AM	#3
8mm Vigilante Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South of Sanity Posts: 498	"Time makes things like this just fade away. No one ever paid the price for the feds mistakes, except the Weavers. We got to make sure this doesn't keep happening in this country" The only way to do that is to make the price for them just as high, as it would be for us in that situation, i.e. kill so many of them, that they'll think twice before they try to pull the same crap, with armed citizens. It's no wonder they don't want us to have the same equipment as them (hi-cap mags, full auto, AP rounds, ect..) it's time to fight back, they have no problems shooting us down with out a second thought, so as the old saying goes... "What comes around, goes around." -Jesse

05-26-2002, 07:22 AM	#4
JS44 Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Florida (space coast area) Posts: 30	The state of Idaho did try to prosecute that FBI sniper, Horiuchi, but the federal government wouldn't allow it. It's like there's no accountability at all with them. I've heard that later attempts by the state were made but haven't heard anything as of late.

05-26-2002, 11:39 AM	#7
Doglips Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cocoa Florida Posts: 9,088	Hay Chris Ill agree that wever has some strong opions..but as to buying the book..I find that reading diffrent points of view even extream can give me insight into people and how diffrent groups see the world. My Rabbi gave me his copy of "The Turner Diaries"...now that was deffitnly a extream point of view....but in some cases I found it confirmeing my beliefs and in others questioning some of mine...just my 2Cents worth.

05-27-2002, 01:20 AM	#8
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	It is true that the people mentioned did have extreme views not aligned with the public and that their rights were violated because of them. I would agree that in general we should support our law enforcement agents. They are there at our request, and they are paid by us to do a job. Conversely, I would also insist that every law enforcement agent exercise sound judgement in the commission of his duties. This includes questioning orders that are contrary to his primary function. Unlike Joe private in the Army, John Law is paid to think and to understand what our rights as citizens are. If some bureaucrat starts giving orders that don't follow the line of reasoning for someone who must enforce the law, then the Lawman must question that order and seek to resolve those directions with the common understanding that men are innocent until proven guilty, and that his control over a given situation must be tempered with the knowledge that exercising tht control with the use of force must be justified by an apparent and realized threat. A lawman does not have the luxury of "shoot first, ask questions later". The cases above were examples of poor judgement calls on behalf of the men who executed the order to take out the targets. Loss of life could easily have been avoided if just one man in each case had thought about what was going on. IMHO, life is mimicking art. Hollywood comes up with these fantastic plot twists where the righteous cop is always getting suckered by the poor bad guy feigning injury or helplessness. You watch that kind of thing, and you start thinking "Gee, I can't let that happen to me, I'd better be prepared for that kinda situation." The next thing you know, some cop's got his weapon drawn and his finger on the trigger pointing at some incidental passerby suddenly turned would be suspect who has no clue what's going on or that his life is about to end based on the next action he takes. I'm not saying cops are bad people. I've got several friends in law enforcement. I'd be a nervous wreck if I were a cop. Too paranoid to trust anyone. That's my problem. What I'm saying is that Law Enforcement agents in general get told to do things by people who have no clue what's going on. Things they should not be told to do. They aren't trained like that. They're not soldiers, they're "Peace" officers. They are there to protect and to serve. They aren't tools for some policy making bureaucrat to enforce his will on us with. I hope that any LEO reading this knows just how much we the law abiding public are counting on him to do the right thing. LEOs are our first line of defense against a tyrannical government.

05-27-2002, 01:24 AM	#9
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	BTW, I think all of us ought to be paid more. I handle nuclear material, for Christ's sake. Do you want me at work worrying about my unpaid bills while I'm at the controls instead of watching the needles slowly move into the red?

05-27-2002, 01:12 PM	#12
Doglips Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cocoa Florida Posts: 9,088	My reply I once read a picture is worth a thousand words...hope this pic. post...got 2 of them so will post twice.

05-27-2002, 01:19 PM	#14
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,769 Images: 15 Blog Entries: 3	#2 That looks like something out of the Turner diaries.:assult: __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas.

05-27-2002, 05:03 PM	#15
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,382	What are the Turner diaries? __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

05-27-2002, 06:54 PM	#16
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	Klaus, I think our arguments are complementary. I wholeheartedly agree that those who claimed to be in charge did unethical, immoral and illegal acts and committed fraud in so doing. What I'm saying is that all the officers standing around listening to the BS should've been wary enough to question such dubious and contradictory directions. The fact that not one of them stood up and called BS on the bureaucrats says that they were improperly trained as LEOs. Maybe that kind of act is appropriate for a Marine who is storming the bunker, but not for Law Enforcement agents, not any of them. Either that, or the bureaucrats have found themselves a good gaggle of idiot yes men to do their evil bidding. Of course, there's something we can do about that, too. A soldier makes a lousy cop, and a cop is no soldier.

05-27-2002, 10:35 PM	#17
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,382	BenP. I agree. I still think Reno, the Clintons, Gore, et al, should be rotting in prison, at the minimum. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

05-28-2002, 10:21 AM	#18
BenP Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 395	I would prefer something more permanent right now. Besides these fiascos we mentioned, they are responsible for the deaths of a lot of other good people. What grave sins did we commit to get stuck with these people running the show? Oh yeah, greed, sloth, and apathy. Guess we got what we deserved (or rather, the Weavers and the Branch Davidians did). Funny, I don't remember supporting Clinton's platform or his campaign. As I recall, I voted against him and his regime twice. But then what do I know. Maybe I should've voted by other means.

05-28-2002, 10:32 AM	#19
Shaun Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 8,619 Images: 1	Klaus you are right that whole administration should be locked up and put in cells where they are forgotten __________________ "Homeland Security is the responsibility of an armed citizen" ME http://webpages.charter.net/s.s.v/

05-28-2002, 10:44 AM	#20
alan c. Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,769 Images: 15 Blog Entries: 3	Turner diaries, oh just one mans view into the future considering total gun control, jack booted thugs breaking down you door looking for firearms, underground organizations run by civilians trying to stay one step ahead of a totally out of control tyrannical government.--- That kind of stuff. Totally FICTIONAL. Or is it. If you have a chance read it for fun only. This is not the type of literature Uncle Sam likes us to read. __________________ God Bless. From Tejas -- formerly known as Texas. Last edited by alan c.; 05-28-2002 at 10:55 AM.