Do we deserve it? Liberty, that is.

Stopper · 12-28-2005, 09:53 AM

Philosopher David Hume warned that, "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." That's why we should guard against any encroachment on liberty, no matter how small. Let's look at a couple of instances where, at our peril, we've failed to do so.

The Christmas season reminds many Americans of the attack on religion. A number of stores have caved in to pressures to ban Christmas celebrations, greetings and symbols, among them: Target, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Kmart, Sears, Costco, Kohl's, Barnes & Noble, Toys 'R' Us, and Walgreens. Cities have banned nativity scenes. Some schools have banned the singing of Christmas carols.

Much of the attack on religion had its birth with the 1963 Supreme Court decision in Murray vs. Curlett, which banned organized school prayers. For a moment, let's ignore the debate on whether that decision was right or wrong and instead focus on tactics. Suppose, in 1963, America's atheists had revealed and demanded their complete agenda: elimination of religious Christmas symbols in public places, elimination of the words "under G-d" in our Pledge of Allegiance, elimination of "In G-d We Trust" from our currency and elimination of caroling in public schools. There would have been so much resistance that they wouldn't have achieved any of their agenda, including the ban on prayers in school. Given our weak resistance, you can bet the day will come when the attack on religion will include demands that crosses be removed from Arlington and Normandy cemeteries and bans on religious television or radio broadcasts.

While many Americans are disturbed by the ongoing attack on religion, they applauded the identical strategy when it was the attack on cigarette smokers. In the 1960s, when the anti-tobacco zealots started out, they only demanded "reasonable" things like no smoking sections on airplanes. Suppose they started out revealing their complete agenda: no smoking in airports, restaurants, places of employment and parks, confiscatory taxes on tobacco products, and multibillion-dollar suits against tobacco companies. There would have been so much resistance that the anti-tobacco zealots wouldn't have succeeded with no smoking sections on airplanes.

The institution of private property offers the liberty-oriented solutions to both the school prayer and the smoking issues. I believe it's a parental right to be able to decide whether one's child will, or will not, say a morning prayer. Conflict emerges because of government-produced education. While there might be an argument for government financing of education, there's absolutely no argument for government production of education. Therefore, if each parent were given an education voucher to pay for education, those parents wishing prayers, or those against prayers in school, could enroll their children in the school that meets their preference. Thus, conflict would be eliminated. Of course, a superior solution would be getting government entirely out of education.

Private property would solve the smoking issue. Suppose you owned a restaurant, and you didn't wish to permit smoking. How would you like it if people used the political system to enact laws that forced you to permit smoking? I'm sure you'd consider it tyranny, and I'd agree. But there's symmetry. It's just as much tyranny to use the political system to enact laws to force a restaurant owner who wished to permit smoking to ban smoking. The liberty-oriented solution might be to post a sign saying you don't permit smoking, and customers wishing otherwise wouldn't enter. The same principle would apply to restaurant owners who wished to permit smoking.

I fear that too many Americans have contempt for the principles of liberty and opt for solutions that employ the political arena to forcibly impose their wills on others. If that's the preferred game, then those Americans shouldn't whine when others employ the same tactic to impose their wills.

Rave · 12-28-2005, 11:35 AM

Seems a lot of folks never lock the barn door because the horse never wound up missing,when it does the wailing and lamenting and finger pointing shall insue.
Unfortunitly by that time the horse is gone forever and they are dismayed!:nod:

NorCalAshnjikov · 12-28-2005, 06:29 PM

Quote:

A number of stores have caved in to pressures to ban Christmas celebrations

Ban Christmas celebrations? Why would you celebrate Christmas in a store? Why would a store celebrate Christmas?
Do stores only sell stuff to Christians?

Quote:

Given our weak resistance, you can bet the day will come when the attack on religion will include demands that crosses be removed from Arlington and Normandy cemeteries and bans on religious television or radio broadcasts.

Thats just stupid.

Quote:

If that's the preferred game, then those Americans shouldn't whine when others employ the same tactic to impose their wills.

Oh please. Religion has been trying to FORCE all kinds of BS onto Americans. School prayer wasn't banned,
it was forced down our throats by some sanctimonious religious zealot,
and the courts had to remind him he had no such right.

All you Head Peckerwood need to stop trying to bless everyone.

.22guy · 12-28-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorCalAshnjikov

All you Head Peckerwood need to stop trying to bless everyone.

Now that's not very nice. I think we all know that you hate religion and white people. Point proven. Have a great day.

NorCalAshnjikov · 12-29-2005, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Now that's not very nice.

Nice?!? That is Stopper's own "title".

Quote:

I think we all know that you hate religion and white people. Point proven. Have a great day.

Ha! I didn't know I was some kind of racist atheist (wait till my mom and my priests hear this). Bless your heart guy.

Stopper · 12-29-2005, 09:51 AM

"All you Head Peckerwood need to stop trying to bless everyone."

Son, I can bless whomever I wish. You don't pull the strings around my part of the woods. So put up or shut up. You want me to stop, then come and stop me.

Outriderdark · 12-29-2005, 02:45 PM

To address the title, I don't believe Liberty is something you deserve or not. I think it is inherent to being a human.
Unfortunately so is the desire to exercise power over others.
And even more unfortunate is that EVERYONE - conservative, liberal, socialist, communist, capitalist, black, white, gay, straight, religious, atheist, rich, poor, businessman, gangsta, redneck, and noneck - seems to want to do just that, even if it's just verbally.
It amazes me that no one seems to be against tyranny....everyone just wants to be the tyrant.
To quote George W. Bush (yes, the President),
"You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier...So long as I'm the dictator."

Outriderdark · 12-29-2005, 02:46 PM

Ummmmmmm....forgive my ignorance but, what the frick is a Head Peckerwood?

Oxford · 12-29-2005, 03:20 PM

Seems to be a legitimate question

so here's the definition:
peck•er•wood

Quote:

Pronunciation: (pek'ur-wood"), [key]
—n.
1. Midland and Southern U.S.woodpecker.
2. Southern U.S. Slang (disparaging and offensive). See poor white.
—adj.
Southern U.S.small or insignificant: He makes a living farming and running a peckerwood sawmill.
Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease.

Stopper · 12-29-2005, 04:23 PM

Too be honest I don't know where the nickname came from. All I know is most of my friends started calling me that a very long time ago. You know it is one of the old farts if they use that nickname - the other one's call me C.K.

I've been the head of the peckerwoods since the inception, I am the highest ranking peckerwood, or supreme peckerwood if you like. We drink like fish, cuss like sailor's and pillage women and rape villages at our whim!!!!!!

.22guy · 12-29-2005, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stopper

"All you Head Peckerwood need to stop trying to bless everyone."
Son, I can bless whomever I wish. You don't pull the strings around my part of the woods. So put up or shut up. You want me to stop, then come and stop me.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

.22guy · 12-29-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorCalAshnjikov

Ha! I didn't know I was some kind of racist atheist (wait till my mom and my priests hear this). Bless your heart guy.

You are telling me you support religion? That's funny. Bless your heart, kiddo.

N2914J · 12-29-2005, 10:15 PM

This is getting a little bit out of hand, is it not, Stopper?

I mean, c'mon, you can't say Merry Christmas in Los Angeles without getting a few weird looks. We're letting gays get married, letting them qualify for "domestic partner" tax breaks. What is that bullshiit? What's next? Will citizens of this country be able to legally have sexx with animals? What sort of other perverse things will we legalize?

WHERE DOES IT STOP???

What is this country going to be in 200 years?

50% Homosexual? Whites being the friggin' minority? I mean, Christ A'Mighty, when do we start saying no? U.S. soldier getting court-martialed for slapping around a couple of !!!!king insurgents? The enemy? The ones who hi-jacked 3 different commercial airplanes, then proceeded to attack us with them, resulting in the destruction of the World Trade Center, and thousands of human lives lost? We're getting all bent out of shape and feeling FUCCKING SORRY FOR THEM? You people are amazing, you know that? We cry for them when their sacred "Qur'an" is desecrated by our soldiers, we sympathize, but in some middle-eastern countries, its is ILLEGAL to own the Holy Bible. I could care less if you believe in God, or his son, Jesus Christ, but why do you support the court-martialling of our troops AT THE WORD OF OUR E-N-E-M-Y?!

How do some of you view this as okay? PLEASE, I BEG YOU, try to change my mind, try to make me feel as if this is right, because I just can't see it, I just can't. Call me closed minded, but over the past several years, I have been struggling to grasp what positive outcome will be derived from these things. Give it a try, help me understand

Rufus Rhastus J · 12-30-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stopper

"All you Head Peckerwood need to stop trying to bless everyone."
Son, I can bless whomever I wish. You don't pull the strings around my part of the woods. So put up or shut up. You want me to stop, then come and stop me.

I love it!

12-28-2005, 09:53 AM	#1
Stopper Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansass Posts: 2,212 Images: 1	Do we deserve it? Liberty, that is. Philosopher David Hume warned that, "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." That's why we should guard against any encroachment on liberty, no matter how small. Let's look at a couple of instances where, at our peril, we've failed to do so. The Christmas season reminds many Americans of the attack on religion. A number of stores have caved in to pressures to ban Christmas celebrations, greetings and symbols, among them: Target, Home Depot, Wal-Mart, Kmart, Sears, Costco, Kohl's, Barnes & Noble, Toys 'R' Us, and Walgreens. Cities have banned nativity scenes. Some schools have banned the singing of Christmas carols. Much of the attack on religion had its birth with the 1963 Supreme Court decision in Murray vs. Curlett, which banned organized school prayers. For a moment, let's ignore the debate on whether that decision was right or wrong and instead focus on tactics. Suppose, in 1963, America's atheists had revealed and demanded their complete agenda: elimination of religious Christmas symbols in public places, elimination of the words "under G-d" in our Pledge of Allegiance, elimination of "In G-d We Trust" from our currency and elimination of caroling in public schools. There would have been so much resistance that they wouldn't have achieved any of their agenda, including the ban on prayers in school. Given our weak resistance, you can bet the day will come when the attack on religion will include demands that crosses be removed from Arlington and Normandy cemeteries and bans on religious television or radio broadcasts. While many Americans are disturbed by the ongoing attack on religion, they applauded the identical strategy when it was the attack on cigarette smokers. In the 1960s, when the anti-tobacco zealots started out, they only demanded "reasonable" things like no smoking sections on airplanes. Suppose they started out revealing their complete agenda: no smoking in airports, restaurants, places of employment and parks, confiscatory taxes on tobacco products, and multibillion-dollar suits against tobacco companies. There would have been so much resistance that the anti-tobacco zealots wouldn't have succeeded with no smoking sections on airplanes. The institution of private property offers the liberty-oriented solutions to both the school prayer and the smoking issues. I believe it's a parental right to be able to decide whether one's child will, or will not, say a morning prayer. Conflict emerges because of government-produced education. While there might be an argument for government financing of education, there's absolutely no argument for government production of education. Therefore, if each parent were given an education voucher to pay for education, those parents wishing prayers, or those against prayers in school, could enroll their children in the school that meets their preference. Thus, conflict would be eliminated. Of course, a superior solution would be getting government entirely out of education. Private property would solve the smoking issue. Suppose you owned a restaurant, and you didn't wish to permit smoking. How would you like it if people used the political system to enact laws that forced you to permit smoking? I'm sure you'd consider it tyranny, and I'd agree. But there's symmetry. It's just as much tyranny to use the political system to enact laws to force a restaurant owner who wished to permit smoking to ban smoking. The liberty-oriented solution might be to post a sign saying you don't permit smoking, and customers wishing otherwise wouldn't enter. The same principle would apply to restaurant owners who wished to permit smoking. I fear that too many Americans have contempt for the principles of liberty and opt for solutions that employ the political arena to forcibly impose their wills on others. If that's the preferred game, then those Americans shouldn't whine when others employ the same tactic to impose their wills. __________________ They should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law"

12-28-2005, 11:35 AM	#2
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 7,053	Seems a lot of folks never lock the barn door because the horse never wound up missing,when it does the wailing and lamenting and finger pointing shall insue. Unfortunitly by that time the horse is gone forever and they are dismayed!:nod: __________________ USAF '62-'66 .

12-29-2005, 09:51 AM	#6
Stopper Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansass Posts: 2,212 Images: 1	"All you Head Peckerwood need to stop trying to bless everyone." Son, I can bless whomever I wish. You don't pull the strings around my part of the woods. So put up or shut up. You want me to stop, then come and stop me. __________________ They should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law"

12-29-2005, 02:45 PM	#7
Outriderdark Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,125	To address the title, I don't believe Liberty is something you deserve or not. I think it is inherent to being a human. Unfortunately so is the desire to exercise power over others. And even more unfortunate is that EVERYONE - conservative, liberal, socialist, communist, capitalist, black, white, gay, straight, religious, atheist, rich, poor, businessman, gangsta, redneck, and noneck - seems to want to do just that, even if it's just verbally. It amazes me that no one seems to be against tyranny....everyone just wants to be the tyrant. To quote George W. Bush (yes, the President), "You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier...So long as I'm the dictator." __________________ "Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was thrown outta windows?"-Archie Bunker

12-29-2005, 02:46 PM	#8
Outriderdark Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,125	Ummmmmmm....forgive my ignorance but, what the frick is a Head Peckerwood? __________________ "Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was thrown outta windows?"-Archie Bunker

12-29-2005, 04:23 PM	#10
Stopper Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansass Posts: 2,212 Images: 1	Too be honest I don't know where the nickname came from. All I know is most of my friends started calling me that a very long time ago. You know it is one of the old farts if they use that nickname - the other one's call me C.K. I've been the head of the peckerwoods since the inception, I am the highest ranking peckerwood, or supreme peckerwood if you like. We drink like fish, cuss like sailor's and pillage women and rape villages at our whim!!!!!! __________________ They should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law"

12-29-2005, 10:15 PM	#13
N2914J Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 391	I feel ya, Stopper This is getting a little bit out of hand, is it not, Stopper? I mean, c'mon, you can't say Merry Christmas in Los Angeles without getting a few weird looks. We're letting gays get married, letting them qualify for "domestic partner" tax breaks. What is that bullshiit? What's next? Will citizens of this country be able to legally have sexx with animals? What sort of other perverse things will we legalize? WHERE DOES IT STOP??? What is this country going to be in 200 years? 50% Homosexual? Whites being the friggin' minority? I mean, Christ A'Mighty, when do we start saying no? U.S. soldier getting court-martialed for slapping around a couple of !!!!king insurgents? The enemy? The ones who hi-jacked 3 different commercial airplanes, then proceeded to attack us with them, resulting in the destruction of the World Trade Center, and thousands of human lives lost? We're getting all bent out of shape and feeling FUCCKING SORRY FOR THEM? You people are amazing, you know that? We cry for them when their sacred "Qur'an" is desecrated by our soldiers, we sympathize, but in some middle-eastern countries, its is ILLEGAL to own the Holy Bible. I could care less if you believe in God, or his son, Jesus Christ, but why do you support the court-martialling of our troops AT THE WORD OF OUR E-N-E-M-Y?! How do some of you view this as okay? PLEASE, I BEG YOU, try to change my mind, try to make me feel as if this is right, because I just can't see it, I just can't. Call me closed minded, but over the past several years, I have been struggling to grasp what positive outcome will be derived from these things. Give it a try, help me understand __________________ God Bless America Last edited by N2914J; 12-29-2005 at 10:18 PM.