Let's Talk About Our Country

[Dennis]

It is That type of thinking that looses Wars.
We need to save Us and KILL THEM "Any thing less is rubbish"
Sorry if reality based thinking shocks you, but maybe you need to be shocked
there are so many millions of americans that refuse to come out of the happy pink clouds and face facts.
"they" (that is the muslims) are now bent on killing us, they absolutly will not stop.
Why would they?
so many are not thinking big enough.
this may be the run up to World war III
run up !!!! it has allready started,
and again we had to endure a suprise attack
We need to stop accepting their definitions of themselves and
START DEFINING OUR ENEMYS AND DESTROY THEM
Muslims attacked us there for ALL muslims are now OUR ENEMYS
with out these definitions the war cannot be effectively fought and victory is an elusive dream.
nationalism used to be the defining factor in wars
now it is reliegion.
this is a reliegious war against a nation
a reliegion vs a country
the fact that most of the American people cannot accept the shift in thinking
is enabling the enemy to avoid being effectively engaged.
They know this.
We must stop bull chit ing our selves.

You would not be so emotionally moved
if it was not true.

Sorry outriderdark

sometimes reality hits us in the face like a wet fish.........

[FutureMarine]

True, ALL muslims are our enemies, IF they(all muslims) are not standing up for their "peaceful religion". However, if there are more Muslims standing up(wich they are not-not enough are) for what they say they believe in, they will indeed be our enemies(ALL). We need to see more Anti-radicals in America and the rest of the world, and ESPECIALLY other Muslims.

[Outriderdark]

The genocide of 1.2 billion people to get at a relative handful of criminals?
wow...
The eradication of every man woman and child because of their professed religion?
huh...
You don't seem to have much of a grasp of the history or nature of this conflict. And your solution seems to be "blood up to the bridle of a horse".

What moves me about this, Dennis, is that FutureMarine is a youngun'.
Much too young to be willing to slit the throats of 1.2 billion people. Roughly the equivelent of the entire western hemisphere.

You seem to think we are in much more danger than we really are. What are terrorists gonna do? Land on the Jersey shore? Airdrop into the midwest? Run bombing sorties outta Canada?
We can keep them from doing the truly horrible things we are all afraid of without nuking entire continents. We are smarter, and we are better than that.

[troy2000]

Sorry, Dennis. You're full of it. This is not a war of a religion against a nation. It's a war of a small percentage of religious fanatics against the entire world.

These idiots are killing locals in the Middle East, the Far East, Indonesia, India, Europe, Africa and North America. They've probably killed at least as many fellow Muslims as they have Americans.

You're cooperating with them very nicely when you claim it's a war between our country and the entire religion. Because that's what they're doing their best to convince the Muslim world of, so they can make it a reality.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by FutureMarine

True, ALL muslims are our enemies, IF they(all muslims) are not standing up for their "peaceful religion". However, if there are more Muslims standing up(wich they are not-not enough are) for what they say they believe in, they will indeed be our enemies(ALL). We need to see more Anti-radicals in America and the rest of the world, and ESPECIALLY other Muslims.

You don't fight fanatics successfully by becoming a fanatic. You win by calmly keeping your grip, while they're losing theirs from overreaching.

And learn a little history: Muhammed classified Christians and Jews as "people of the book," which meant they were exempt from conversion by the sword; they were allowed to keep their religion in Muslim-controlled areas. So any Muslim who truly believes in Muhammed's teachings does NOT have any religious duty at all to convert or kill either Christians or Jews.

[FutureMarine]

okay...ORD... I am not saying i want to kill a bunch of innocent people. I am personally saying that if people are truly against the radical muslims, they should be doing more than a speech, they should be taking force and kiilling the BAD ones. If they are not wliling to to that, they are NOT OUR FREINDS.

[FutureMarine]

Originally Posted by troy2000

You don't fight fanatics successfully by becoming a fanatic. You win by calmly keeping your grip, while they're losing theirs from overreaching.

And learn a little history: Muhammed classified Christians and Jews as "people of the book," which meant they were exempt from conversion by the sword; they were allowed to keep their religion in Muslim-controlled areas. So any Muslim who truly believes in Muhammed's teachings does NOT have any religious duty at all to convert or kill either Christians or Jews.

and i understand that, in some parts of the koran they are saying Christians and Jews have a spot in heaven. I am SAYING that if good muslims(wich i understand that there are some) are truly good muslims(again, wich i understand that there are some) they will stand up against people who are saying their religion is about killing innocent people and the same poeple who are killing innocent people. I understand that these are not typical muslims. they are people who want to kill the good Islamics too, not just us. But i am saying that they are not good muslims and not good to the American cause if they are not willing to abolish evil radicalism

[FutureMarine]

Another thing troy, when you last quoted me, i said "IF"...i didnt just blankly state that all muslims are our enemy, i said IF...

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by FutureMarine

and i understand that, in some parts of the koran they are saying Christians and Jews have a spot in heaven. I am SAYING that if good muslims(wich i understand that there are some) are truly good muslims(again, wich i understand that there are some) they will stand up against people who are saying their religion is about killing innocent people and the same poeple who are killing innocent people. I understand that these are not typical muslims. they are people who want to kill the good Islamics too, not just us. But i am saying that they are not good muslims and not good to the American cause if they are not willing to abolish evil radicalism

One is that a lot of Muslims in countries who haven't been directly affected by the terrorists simply say, "my dog's not in that fight." They see no reason for jumping in, because they don't think it involves them one way or another. That isn't as unreasonable as you might think; how many Catholics in this country are fighting to stop the IRA in Northern Ireland? How many Protestants here are trying to stop the Ulstermen? I'll admit it may be shortsighted of those uninvolved Muslims, because if the terrorists keep pulling stuff in the name of Allah, we could wind up in a war against Muslims in general, like Dennis thinks is already happening.

Another reason is that a lot of them don't want to become targets themselves of the fanatics, who are quite as willing to kill people they consider apostate Muslims as they are anyone else.

A deeper problem is that most of the Muslim countries are in the toilet economically, and the people in charge find it easier to blame the problems on outsiders than to fix things. Since most of the populace is woefully uneducated they buy it, and resent us. So they don't mind seeing us get our comeupance now and then, even though they don't really like the terrorists either. That doesn't necessarily make them our enemies; it makes them more or less neutral.

In reality, if those countries hadn't already been weakened by corruption and inept rulers, and by an educational and belief system in the last couple of centuries that values memorising the Koran over learning science, medicine, engineering, etc, the West would never have been able to colonise and exploit them.

I'm rambling a little. My original point was: why is it the job of the Muslim world to stop a handful of fanatics attacking us, just because they're claiming to do it for religious reasons? I'd say the job of defending ourselves is still ours, not theirs. And it doesn't help to blame millions of Muslims for a few hundred or few thousand wackos who are perverting the religion. Doing that will simply convince the rest of them that maybe the nutjobs are right, and they'd better get us before we get them...

[FutureMarine]

I understand that, and i should have includeed this in my other posts. A lot of them(muslims) are just trying to do what is in the benifit of their children and family, and i totally understand that. what i should havve included is that muslims who are in a direct 'line of fire' between us and them(radicals) need to abolish radicalism if they are truly good muslims and haave consideration for our way of life.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by FutureMarine

I understand that, and i should have includeed this in my other posts. A lot of them(muslims) are just trying to do what is in the benifit of their children and family, and i totally understand that. what i should havve included is that muslims who are in a direct 'line of fire' between us and them(radicals) need to abolish radicalism if they are truly good muslims and haave consideration for our way of life.

...up to a point. I was just trying to make sure you keep a little perspective.

And after a lifetime of being a big brother, favorite uncle, father and foster parent, I'll lecture a young'un at the drop of a hat. Thanks for taking it so politely.

[Apollyon67]

this thread isn't going as badly as some thought it might have been. I must say I am learning alot so I hope this keeps going.

[Outriderdark]

All very good points, Troy. (it's always so weird typing my own name in reference to someone else)

FM...the most important thing I could recommend would be to weigh heavily what others say before agreeing with them. It can be so easy when the beat is sounding the march of patriotism to fall in with the drummer without hearing what the real tune is in the background. It certainly sounded like you condoned genocide.
Many Germans today live with the guilt of falling in with everyone else during the Nazi regime, because they were caught up in fervent patriotism.
Patriotism is one of the highest values, and I count myself as a patriot who would lay down his life for his country. But I'd be living in the mountains eating squirrels before I took part in an American sponsored genocide. Actually, as an armed citizen who dearly loves what this nation stand for, I'd probably lay dead in the street with alot of other people for trying to stop it.
Remember always what America is. It's not about this dirt, not about the World Trade Center, and it's not even about those brave men and women fighting overseas. It's the ideals we stand for.

[FutureMarine]

Remember, i was not agreeing in genocide...I was saying that Non-radical muslims in the 'line of fire' between us and Radicals need to stand up for what they say their religion believes in, or they are not 'good muslims'...Notice i didnt say all muslims should help, i said muslims in the line of fire...

[Rufus Rhastus J]

Originally Posted by Outriderdark

I've given some thought to this post and wondered about the best way to respond.
We are unique as a nation in that our heritage is not about the land we occupy. Unlike Russia or Germany or France and many others, we never really held to the idea of "fatherland".
Our Nation from birth was a collection of ideals. Of truths that out forebears saw as self-evident.
And it was never meant to be "fatherland above all else" like we see in many other places where tyrants and occupiers and greater evils come and go over the centuries but duty to the "fatherland" is steadfast.
Our "fatherland" is written on aging parchment in Washington. You could transplant us to any piece of ground on earth with those documents, and that is where America would be.
Ours is a nation that strives to be good and right because our foundation compells us to. Often we fail despite the striving but we sometimes get a little closer to it. To quote the poet, "We mean to be what we meant to be"
As for me personally, as long as we as a nation are compelled by the foundation laid out in those precious documents, and as long as we "mean to be what we meant to be" I will stand true, through tough times and stupid leaders.
But if those truths and ideals - those documents -that are our "fatherland" are cast aside or rent asunder, then I am cast aside and rent asunder with them.
I prefer "Give me Liberty or give me Death" to "America, love it or leave it"

:lucky: in your quote :I prefer "Give me Liberty or give me Death" to "America, love it or leave it".....am I to understand that you find the patriot act and this latest treason to be cause for concern?:nod:

[Outriderdark]

Rufus, what I was getting at was a broader sense of how I feel about the nation and not really about one thing in particular.

I think the Patriot Act is un-American.

[Dennis]

????
sounding kinda muddel headed.........
OK,
So, You dont believe they can hurt us very much. Mmmmmmmm
and we should stay our hand against them because they are just little stupid people that are as our children..................Mmmmmmmm
And
our land and our people are not sacred only our ideology is what truly matters?
What will it take to convince you otherwise?
10,000 dead Americans?
100,000?
1,000,000?
10,000,000?

When will You begin to fight?
What will it take?
The destruction of the worlds economy?
The destruction of the World? itself?

We humans will either continue to advance or we will not
That is what the war is over.
a bunch of muslim chit heads want to revert back to 7th century calphates
So, Ya wanna go back to the 7th century?
doesnt that sound nice boys and girls?

That is their Stated Goals

What is most terrifying to me is that it is doubtful that we can stop them.
With so many wanting too leave after such a cream puff war
what is the American Public going to do if it REALLY gets tough.
Right now we are just barely above a regular training/peacetime activity casuality rate.
what if they whack us good?

trying to complicate a simple situation is exactly what THEY are counting on.
THEY are fighting ALL of the American people.
We must eventually fight them in the same way
We can draw this out for decades untill our grand children finally choose to do what must be done to achieve victory.
or
We ourselves can do what must be done.
or
we can revert to the 7th century islamic ideal.

[troy2000]

"a RELATIVELY SMALL GROUP of muslim chit heads want to revert back to 7th century calphates," Dennis.

That doesn't mean we go to war against everyone in the bleeping world who's a Muslim.

On the way to work this morning, I heard on the radio that some suicide bomber walked into a funeral procession in Iraq and killed fifty Muslims. Were those fifty Muslims part of the conspiracy to attack the World Trade Center?

[UKFoxHunter]

Just coming back on topic, i dont no if im the only guy from the uk but firstly..... F*ck you Tony Blair, your a conning, hipocrit who wants only but power and nothing to back it up.

I no that every time i step out of the house im gonna be taxed for something, where does it all go.. Tony Blairs Condom Bill.....

Wankewrs the lot of them, Apologies for the swearing, bit id come and kip round any of yours anyday.,

regards

One Strong Sad !!! Brit.!!!!!!!!!1

[Father Time]

Originally Posted by Dennis

????
sounding kinda muddel headed.........

If muddle-headed means intelligent and educated enough to see more than one side of an issue, Thanks! I will take the compliment.

Even if Islamic Jihad sets off a dirty bomb in a major metropolitan area, it doesn't prove your point. It only shows that we are raging around like a mad, terrified bull instead of calmly searching out the terrorists and taking reasonable security precautions.

Your Pal,
Father Time