ATF breaking the law, again

dhermesc · 02-20-2006, 09:42 AM

Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
February 17, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law.

Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics.

"ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges."

The form letter had blanks for the name of the gun show patron and the date and time they were ordered to appear at the ATF field office, but cited no authority for the gun confiscations or the mandatory office visits.
John White, a former law enforcement officer who is now an FFL operating under the business name "The Gunsmith," said female customers who approached his sales area at the Richmond shows were immediately targeted by the "undercover" officers.

"If a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement," White recalled. "If the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they would have bumped into each other. Their surveillance methods were pitiful.

"Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialRe...20060217a.html

Dale · 02-20-2006, 03:01 PM

While I don't condone their tactics the BATF has every right to enforce the law about making a false statement on the yellow form.

In all they might well have kept some illegals buying guns to use against us.

They are d*mned if they do...da*ned if they don't.

Honestly, I would need to know more firsthand facts about the situation before I cast a judgement against them totally.

What am I thinking? ALL news reports are true and accurate....D*MN the BATF!

LOL

SPOCAHP ANAR · 02-20-2006, 04:36 PM

There's something called reasonable suspicion. A female buying a gun does not qualify.

Outriderdark · 02-20-2006, 04:53 PM

They have to have reasonable suspicion, Dale. They can't just randomly seize or search. Nor can they single out a subset of people to conduct search or seizure on. People should lose their jobs over this.
This is America for cryin' out loud, not some third world facist country or Red China. Even if some people have forgotten that.
I never stop being amazed at peoples warped view of liberty. 'Cause it doesn't involve facist tactics.

WetKnife · 02-20-2006, 04:55 PM

Guys I know they sound like the Gestapo , but if they stop one idiot from getting their hands on an AK or .45 cal pistol and some child doesn't die then I am OK with it. We have 290,00,000 legal residents and some 30 million illegal aliens of all sorts here. For a grand total of 320 million souls. At least 1/2 have no reason to handle a firearm (Spastic) or can't due to criminal activity (Martha Stewart). We need an agency devoted to keeping guns from spastic criminals from shooting themelves or an innocent souls.

Outriderdark · 02-20-2006, 05:03 PM

I know it does no good to continue posting this fundamental American value but....one more time...

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

It means as Americans; nay, as humans; we should value our liberty above even our safety. It is our most fundamental principal and value. If we do not, we deserve neither and will lose both.

Big Dog · 02-20-2006, 05:13 PM

I have to agree with OD on this - the tactics are designed to make people second guess buying a gun. This is like the cops pulling over and issuing warning tickets to every driver under thirty, just because they may be more prone to accidents or speeding. Sometimes, profiling can be a legitimate and useful law enforcement tool. In this case, it seems like simple bullying.
I agree we need more data - but the initial indications are wrong-doing on the BATF's part.
Innocent until proven guilty? Not to the BATF.

troy2000 · 02-20-2006, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WetKnife

Guys I know they sound like the Gestapo , but if they stop one idiot from getting their hands on an AK or .45 cal pistol and some child doesn't die then I am OK with it. We have 290,00,000 legal residents and some 30 million illegal aliens of all sorts here. For a grand total of 320 million souls. At least 1/2 have no reason to handle a firearm (Spastic) or can't due to criminal activity (Martha Stewart). We need an agency devoted to keeping guns from spastic criminals from shooting themelves or an innocent souls.

Just take EVERYONE's guns away, and then we won't have any children at all getting shot!

Outriderdark · 02-20-2006, 06:22 PM

"Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was pushed outta windows" - Archie Bunker

fordruid · 02-20-2006, 06:31 PM

I just noticed. Cars kill more people in the US each year than guns do (many times more). Lets outlaw cars. Let everyone ride the bus!!!

Dale · 02-20-2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

There's something called reasonable suspicion. A female buying a gun does not qualify.

Ah, but you take the reasonable suspicion (cause) requirement out of the equation once you sign that form.

Rave · 02-20-2006, 08:16 PM

Dam ATF is no better than the KKK with out the hoods,they don't have to hide,they got the power! Bastids!:insane:

Dale · 02-20-2006, 08:24 PM

Once again, I will repeat for those that might have not seen it...I don't condone their conduct.

I would like a show of hands of those in here that know ALL the facts regarding this article and those who think the article included all the facts.

That was my point.

The over-zealous press has a tendancy to print things in a slant that they wish.....make sense?

Yes?

No?

Mooseman684 · 02-20-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fordruid

I just noticed. Cars kill more people in the US each year than guns do (many times more). Lets outlaw cars. Let everyone ride the bus!!!

DOCTORS accidently Kill more people than firearms every years, whose trying to stop that ???

Funny too How they Group Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms and Explosives all in one Bunch, Sounds More Like A Party to me !

02-20-2006, 09:42 AM	#1
dhermesc Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: East Central Kansas Posts: 1,763 Trader Rating: (0)	ATF breaking the law, again Congress Told of ATF Seizures, Threats to Gun Buyers By Jeff Johnson CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer February 17, 2006 (CNSNews.com) - Agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), allegedly acting without warrants or legislative authority to do so, seized firearms from at least 50 gun show patrons in Virginia according to congressional testimony and an agency document made public Wednesday. Witnesses also testified that African-American and female gun buyers in Richmond, Va., and Pittsburgh, Pa., were profiled based on their race or sex and some in Pittsburgh were threatened with arrest by ATF agents for alleged actions that are not violations of law. Rep. Howard Coble (R-N.C.) chairs the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, which has jurisdiction over ATF. While he supports the agency's mission, Coble questions some of its tactics. "ATF reports that 206 [gun show] participants were stopped and interviewed while it confiscated firearms from another 50 participants," Coble said, referring to gun shows in Richmond, Va. "Although most of the firearms were ultimately returned, the purchasers were notified via official letter from ATF that [they] were ordered to appear at the local ATF office to discuss their transactions. In addition, the letter explained that failure to appear could result in an arrest warrant being issued for the alleged charges." The form letter had blanks for the name of the gun show patron and the date and time they were ordered to appear at the ATF field office, but cited no authority for the gun confiscations or the mandatory office visits. John White, a former law enforcement officer who is now an FFL operating under the business name "The Gunsmith," said female customers who approached his sales area at the Richmond shows were immediately targeted by the "undercover" officers. "If a woman showed up at my table, she was surrounded by law enforcement," White recalled. "If the lady walked off and suddenly stopped, they would have bumped into each other. Their surveillance methods were pitiful. "Every woman that makes a purchase, every woman who comes to my table to buy a gun was automatically [treated as] a straw purchaser," White said. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialRe...20060217a.html __________________ Liberty is for those that claim it.

02-20-2006, 03:01 PM	#2
Dale Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Too Dang Hot, Arizona Posts: 4,284 Trader Rating: (0)	While I don't condone their tactics the BATF has every right to enforce the law about making a false statement on the yellow form. In all they might well have kept some illegals buying guns to use against us. They are dmned if they do...daned if they don't. Honestly, I would need to know more firsthand facts about the situation before I cast a judgement against them totally. What am I thinking? ALL news reports are true and accurate....D*MN the BATF! LOL __________________ "It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me

02-20-2006, 04:36 PM	#3
SPOCAHP ANAR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: SC-upstate Posts: 4,022 Trader Rating: (0)	There's something called reasonable suspicion. A female buying a gun does not qualify. __________________ Spocrest Out!..........

02-20-2006, 04:53 PM	#4
Outriderdark Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,125 Trader Rating: (0)	They have to have reasonable suspicion, Dale. They can't just randomly seize or search. Nor can they single out a subset of people to conduct search or seizure on. People should lose their jobs over this. This is America for cryin' out loud, not some third world facist country or Red China. Even if some people have forgotten that. I never stop being amazed at peoples warped view of liberty. 'Cause it doesn't involve facist tactics. __________________ "Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was thrown outta windows?"-Archie Bunker

02-20-2006, 05:03 PM	#6
Outriderdark Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,125 Trader Rating: (0)	I know it does no good to continue posting this fundamental American value but....one more time... "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin It means as Americans; nay, as humans; we should value our liberty above even our safety. It is our most fundamental principal and value. If we do not, we deserve neither and will lose both. __________________ "Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was thrown outta windows?"-Archie Bunker

02-20-2006, 04:55 PM	#5
WetKnife Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 239 Trader Rating: (0)	Guys I know they sound like the Gestapo , but if they stop one idiot from getting their hands on an AK or .45 cal pistol and some child doesn't die then I am OK with it. We have 290,00,000 legal residents and some 30 million illegal aliens of all sorts here. For a grand total of 320 million souls. At least 1/2 have no reason to handle a firearm (Spastic) or can't due to criminal activity (Martha Stewart). We need an agency devoted to keeping guns from spastic criminals from shooting themelves or an innocent souls.

02-20-2006, 05:13 PM	#7
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,020 Trader Rating: (0)	I have to agree with OD on this - the tactics are designed to make people second guess buying a gun. This is like the cops pulling over and issuing warning tickets to every driver under thirty, just because they may be more prone to accidents or speeding. Sometimes, profiling can be a legitimate and useful law enforcement tool. In this case, it seems like simple bullying. I agree we need more data - but the initial indications are wrong-doing on the BATF's part. Innocent until proven guilty? Not to the BATF. __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

02-20-2006, 06:22 PM	#9
Outriderdark Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 1,125 Trader Rating: (0)	"Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was pushed outta windows" - Archie Bunker __________________ "Would it make you feel better, little girl, if they was thrown outta windows?"-Archie Bunker

02-20-2006, 06:31 PM	#10
fordruid Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 156 Trader Rating: (0)	I just noticed. Cars kill more people in the US each year than guns do (many times more). Lets outlaw cars. Let everyone ride the bus!!!

02-20-2006, 08:16 PM	#12
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 6,735 Trader Rating: (0)	Dam ATF is no better than the KKK with out the hoods,they don't have to hide,they got the power! Bastids!:insane: __________________ USAF '62-'66 .

02-20-2006, 08:24 PM	#13
Dale Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Too Dang Hot, Arizona Posts: 4,284 Trader Rating: (0)	Once again, I will repeat for those that might have not seen it...I don't condone their conduct. I would like a show of hands of those in here that know ALL the facts regarding this article and those who think the article included all the facts. That was my point. The over-zealous press has a tendancy to print things in a slant that they wish.....make sense? Yes? No? __________________ "It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me