Would you give in or defend yourself?

Chris · 07-14-2006, 08:37 AM

The other night I was to meet up with 3 friends, 2 girls one with a boyfriend at a local shopping center in a well lighted area not in the best but certainly not the worst area of town.

Well before I get there 3 men come up and pull guns on my three friends. One girl was in the passenger seat and they didn't mess with her, the bf was kneeling on the ground to the drivers seat and his gf was in the drivers seat. They throw the bf to the ground and take $13 off of him, while trying to take the gf's purse she fights them until they put the gun in her face. While this is going on the girl in the front seat was calling the police department who just happened to have cops behind the shopping center they were at. During the struggle they just ended up taking the $13 and leaving, but 30 seconds later busted by the cops.

To me I really feel thankful this is how it had played out. If I had been there I would not have drawn my firearm for being out numbered 3 to 1. I also realized that if I had been there and drawn one of my friends or I could be dead right now. This is a responsibility that we as active gun owners and CCW license holders have when we carry.

I pull up just moments after it all happens. Maybe there is a reason for everything, or someone upstairs has a bigger plan.

Stopper · 07-14-2006, 10:21 AM

discretion is the better part of valor

BattleRifleG3 · 07-14-2006, 10:36 AM

Having a tool at your disposal means it's still you in charge. Knee-jerk drawing would certainly make the attackers more likely to panic and shoot.

One of those situations where you can't really say what would have happened if they had done anything differently and can just be thankful everyone came out ok.

My thoughts are that one should choose whatever seems most effective in guaranteeing their safety, whether that means shooting, running, or giving up property, recognizing that nothing is for sure and anything is a tough judgement call that has to be made decisively.

I'm very glad your friends are ok, I wouldn't try to make sense of it, just thank God (literally) that they're ok and the perps were caught.

Dallas · 07-14-2006, 11:58 AM

This is exactly why i have no interest in a concealed carry permit. Stopper is correct discretion is the better part of valor. They weren't trying to seriously hurt anyone nor apparently were they threatening any serious harm, so let them have the money and call the cops after the fact. I would be afraid I might try something stupid so I don't want to put myself in the situation were I might.

ash · 07-14-2006, 02:23 PM

If I were in a situation like that and I was carrying I highly doubt any of the three guys would have walked away. Carried if they were lucky.
Although I think the outcome would have been the same even if I weren't carrying.

Beer Forever · 07-14-2006, 02:59 PM

3 on 1 is not a fair fight, but I know part of me would have wanted to shoot them.

jerry · 07-14-2006, 03:10 PM

If it were just me alone, I'd probably fight.
Other people involved, I'd hate to screw up and get one of them shot. That said, if a trigger was actually pulled by the bad guy, fight on no matter what the circumstances.

Sorry this happened to your friends.

Oxford · 07-14-2006, 03:54 PM

Great situation to post, Chris, which makes us think in terms of real life self defensive scenarios. This points out that the individual circumstances dictate which action to take. Even if you had been there, and carrying, you still would have been in control of the choice to decide which action to take.

Granted...emotions in the heat of the "battle" might have swayed you to lean toward defending yourself with your gun...but other individuals might have had a different view on what to do, depending upon their own backgrounds.

I believe you would have made the right decision had you been there at the time of the holdup.:right:

SPOCAHP ANAR · 07-14-2006, 05:43 PM

Chris; this could have played out in any number of scenarios. Be thankful everyone is ok and unharmed.

burd1959 · 07-14-2006, 08:43 PM

theyed better not left me an opening and then i agree with jerry i wouldnt want a friend hurt

Ach Du Liebe · 07-15-2006, 01:47 AM

I would've shot em. When they hear the crack of that first bullet going through the air and the perps buddy drops to the ground they will be so surprised that before they know it theyre gonna be screaming on the ground too.

I dont know really, ive never been in a situation like that, im not really sure what i would do.

but id feel kind of bad if the cops never caught them so maybe i would shoot them.......

Habakkuk21 · 07-15-2006, 03:43 AM

Okay, the situation as you described it has the two girls in a car, and the male friend kneeling outside the driver's window. Three armed perps come up. OPTIONS ARE ALREADY VERY LIMITED!
Why? In a situation like that, there is at least an implied contract among the targets that they will act in a way that will not only protect them, but protect the other targets. Under these circumstances, you CAN"T get everybody away by running. The girls in the car could escape, at the cost of abandoning the boyfriend. (There are SOME circumstances where that SHOULD be the choice.) The male friend, from what you said, did EXACTLY the right thing. He's facing overwhelming potentially deadly force, and he has no way of MAKING the perps do anything. As long as this is a straight robbery, then he has a DUTY to give up his money, and encourage the girls to do the same. He gets an A+.
The driver didn't drive off and leave her boyfriend. Instead, she chose a worse course. If she HAD driven off, she would have saved herself, and saved the other female, and they could stayed in sight of the perps (beyond pistol range) and called for help, honked horn, zig-sagged, lots of stuff. Instead, she STAYS there, and ANTAGONIZES the perps, putting everybody in mortal danger. She does NOTHING helpful. At the end, she is relying of the self restraint of the criminal she has just been provoking. She gets an :F: and if she doesn't get her act together, I sincerely hope her boyfriend DUMPS her and lets everyone know why. I wouldn't want MY son going out with someone that foolish.
The passenger calls the cops. She gets an :A:; perhaps, depending on how volatile the situation was with the fight between the female driving and the armed perp, her grade could change. For example, if She jumped up and yelled, "Hey, I called the cops, nanny nanny boo boo" then I'd dock her grade for antagonizing. However, there's no hint of that in your report of the incident, so, she gets an :A: for keeping her head and getting help.
Now, if I have misunderstood a fact or ten, then my rating of their performances will be wrong. However, based on what I read in your post, that's my analysis. I hope that those who care for the driver will provide her with firm and gentle words to lead her to develop a better appreciation for the realities of the situation.

troy2000 · 07-16-2006, 09:30 AM

What she did worked that particular time, and that's what counts.

If they were close enough to get their hands on her purse, it's assuming a lot to say she could've driven off. We don't even know she still had the key in the ignition.

And wrestling them for the purse isn't usually what I'd call the first recommended procedure, but it may have kept them distracted so they didn't pistol-whip the bf for only having 13 bucks to give up, and/or it may have slowed them down enough for the cops to catch up with them.

I certainly wouldn't dump her for doing what she could until they put a gun on her; I like a lady with some spirit.

Pred · 07-16-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas

They weren't trying to seriously hurt anyone nor apparently were they threatening any serious harm

Your getting robbed and someone puts a gun in your face, but their not threatening you? By all means please explain. I guess my reaction would have depended on many things. But what should have happened would be when they ran away all three were hit in the back by a large caliber rifle. Just out of curiosity, were these guys white or black.

Dallas · 07-16-2006, 12:02 PM

Where does it say they put a gun in someones face? Chill Pred I was speaking in general terms. If you shoot them in the back the cops will be taking you away in cuffs not them. What does color have to do with it?

troy2000 · 07-16-2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas

Where does it say they put a gun in someones face? Chill Pred I was speaking in general terms. If you shoot them in the back the cops will be taking you away in cuffs not them. What does color have to do with it?

"while trying to take the gf's purse she fights them until they put the gun in her face."

I agree that color is irrelevent, and that backshooting them in a public area with a large-caliber rifle as they ran away would be a bad idea on several levels.

There are a lot of "would've, could've, should've" aspects to this story. I'm just glad no one got hurt, and the perps got caught. And I'll argue that since the results were good, what everyone did was good--this time, in this place.

Dallas · 07-16-2006, 03:22 PM

Oh heck my bad and apologies, heck take out your street legal weapon and blast'em to heck. Do you really think if you had a gun in your face you could pull yours and shoot the bad guy before he dropped the hammer on you? Or droped it on the person it was pointed at?

Pred · 07-16-2006, 05:05 PM

What did I say that deserved a "chill" response? The whole back shooting thing was a joke, sort of. I don't have much respect for violent criminals. The color might be irrelevant, but I'd still like to know.

Dallas · 07-16-2006, 05:38 PM

Then sorta chill. I felt personally attacked, I'll go to my corner if you go to yours.

Pred · 07-16-2006, 06:22 PM

LOL, ya got a deal. I was not trying to personally attack you. And I apologize if I came off that way.

07-14-2006, 08:37 AM	#1
Chris HMFIC Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,834,251 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 20	Would you give in or defend yourself? The other night I was to meet up with 3 friends, 2 girls one with a boyfriend at a local shopping center in a well lighted area not in the best but certainly not the worst area of town. Well before I get there 3 men come up and pull guns on my three friends. One girl was in the passenger seat and they didn't mess with her, the bf was kneeling on the ground to the drivers seat and his gf was in the drivers seat. They throw the bf to the ground and take $13 off of him, while trying to take the gf's purse she fights them until they put the gun in her face. While this is going on the girl in the front seat was calling the police department who just happened to have cops behind the shopping center they were at. During the struggle they just ended up taking the $13 and leaving, but 30 seconds later busted by the cops. To me I really feel thankful this is how it had played out. If I had been there I would not have drawn my firearm for being out numbered 3 to 1. I also realized that if I had been there and drawn one of my friends or I could be dead right now. This is a responsibility that we as active gun owners and CCW license holders have when we carry. I pull up just moments after it all happens. Maybe there is a reason for everything, or someone upstairs has a bigger plan. __________________ Rules \| Contributing Members No one has the right to deny my personal safety Please be descriptive in your thread titles! NRA Life Member

07-14-2006, 10:21 AM	#2
Stopper Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Kansass Posts: 2,212 Images: 1	discretion is the better part of valor __________________ They should have stopped at "Congress shall make no law"

07-14-2006, 10:36 AM	#3
BattleRifleG3 Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western PA Posts: 11,429 Images: 13	Having a tool at your disposal means it's still you in charge. Knee-jerk drawing would certainly make the attackers more likely to panic and shoot. One of those situations where you can't really say what would have happened if they had done anything differently and can just be thankful everyone came out ok. My thoughts are that one should choose whatever seems most effective in guaranteeing their safety, whether that means shooting, running, or giving up property, recognizing that nothing is for sure and anything is a tough judgement call that has to be made decisively. I'm very glad your friends are ok, I wouldn't try to make sense of it, just thank God (literally) that they're ok and the perps were caught. __________________ Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf

07-14-2006, 03:10 PM	#7
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 11,117 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	If it were just me alone, I'd probably fight. Other people involved, I'd hate to screw up and get one of them shot. That said, if a trigger was actually pulled by the bad guy, fight on no matter what the circumstances. Sorry this happened to your friends. __________________ Joe the plumber is screwed

07-14-2006, 03:54 PM	#8
Oxford Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Gladstone, Missouri Posts: 13,073 Blog Entries: 4	Great situation to post, Chris, which makes us think in terms of real life self defensive scenarios. This points out that the individual circumstances dictate which action to take. Even if you had been there, and carrying, you still would have been in control of the choice to decide which action to take. Granted...emotions in the heat of the "battle" might have swayed you to lean toward defending yourself with your gun...but other individuals might have had a different view on what to do, depending upon their own backgrounds. I believe you would have made the right decision had you been there at the time of the holdup.:right: __________________ "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right".

07-14-2006, 11:58 AM	#4
Dallas PUKHA DAWG Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Virginia, just outside of Washington D.C. Posts: 3,604	This is exactly why i have no interest in a concealed carry permit. Stopper is correct discretion is the better part of valor. They weren't trying to seriously hurt anyone nor apparently were they threatening any serious harm, so let them have the money and call the cops after the fact. I would be afraid I might try something stupid so I don't want to put myself in the situation were I might.

07-14-2006, 02:23 PM	#5
ash Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: En route Posts: 934 Images: 3	If I were in a situation like that and I was carrying I highly doubt any of the three guys would have walked away. Carried if they were lucky. Although I think the outcome would have been the same even if I weren't carrying.

07-14-2006, 02:59 PM	#6
Beer Forever Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 2,718	3 on 1 is not a fair fight, but I know part of me would have wanted to shoot them.

07-14-2006, 05:43 PM	#9
SPOCAHP ANAR Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: SC-upstate Posts: 4,185 Images: 1 Blog Entries: 6	Chris; this could have played out in any number of scenarios. Be thankful everyone is ok and unharmed. __________________ Spocrest Out!..........

07-14-2006, 08:43 PM	#10
burd1959 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: burton michigan Posts: 608	theyed better not left me an opening and then i agree with jerry i wouldnt want a friend hurt

07-15-2006, 01:47 AM	#11
Ach Du Liebe Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Pasco, Washington Posts: 166	I would've shot em. When they hear the crack of that first bullet going through the air and the perps buddy drops to the ground they will be so surprised that before they know it theyre gonna be screaming on the ground too. I dont know really, ive never been in a situation like that, im not really sure what i would do. but id feel kind of bad if the cops never caught them so maybe i would shoot them....... __________________ tic tac sir?

07-15-2006, 03:43 AM	#12
Habakkuk21 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 173	Okay, the situation as you described it has the two girls in a car, and the male friend kneeling outside the driver's window. Three armed perps come up. OPTIONS ARE ALREADY VERY LIMITED! Why? In a situation like that, there is at least an implied contract among the targets that they will act in a way that will not only protect them, but protect the other targets. Under these circumstances, you CAN"T get everybody away by running. The girls in the car could escape, at the cost of abandoning the boyfriend. (There are SOME circumstances where that SHOULD be the choice.) The male friend, from what you said, did EXACTLY the right thing. He's facing overwhelming potentially deadly force, and he has no way of MAKING the perps do anything. As long as this is a straight robbery, then he has a DUTY to give up his money, and encourage the girls to do the same. He gets an A+. The driver didn't drive off and leave her boyfriend. Instead, she chose a worse course. If she HAD driven off, she would have saved herself, and saved the other female, and they could stayed in sight of the perps (beyond pistol range) and called for help, honked horn, zig-sagged, lots of stuff. Instead, she STAYS there, and ANTAGONIZES the perps, putting everybody in mortal danger. She does NOTHING helpful. At the end, she is relying of the self restraint of the criminal she has just been provoking. She gets an :F: and if she doesn't get her act together, I sincerely hope her boyfriend DUMPS her and lets everyone know why. I wouldn't want MY son going out with someone that foolish. The passenger calls the cops. She gets an :A:; perhaps, depending on how volatile the situation was with the fight between the female driving and the armed perp, her grade could change. For example, if She jumped up and yelled, "Hey, I called the cops, nanny nanny boo boo" then I'd dock her grade for antagonizing. However, there's no hint of that in your report of the incident, so, she gets an :A: for keeping her head and getting help. Now, if I have misunderstood a fact or ten, then my rating of their performances will be wrong. However, based on what I read in your post, that's my analysis. I hope that those who care for the driver will provide her with firm and gentle words to lead her to develop a better appreciation for the realities of the situation. __________________ Greetings from Woodstock, GA, cultural center of the universe.

07-16-2006, 09:30 AM	#13
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 9,929 Images: 9	I'm not second-guessing the girl friend, either What she did worked that particular time, and that's what counts. If they were close enough to get their hands on her purse, it's assuming a lot to say she could've driven off. We don't even know she still had the key in the ignition. And wrestling them for the purse isn't usually what I'd call the first recommended procedure, but it may have kept them distracted so they didn't pistol-whip the bf for only having 13 bucks to give up, and/or it may have slowed them down enough for the cops to catch up with them. I certainly wouldn't dump her for doing what she could until they put a gun on her; I like a lady with some spirit.

07-16-2006, 12:02 PM	#15
Dallas PUKHA DAWG Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Virginia, just outside of Washington D.C. Posts: 3,604	Where does it say they put a gun in someones face? Chill Pred I was speaking in general terms. If you shoot them in the back the cops will be taking you away in cuffs not them. What does color have to do with it?

07-16-2006, 03:22 PM	#17
Dallas PUKHA DAWG Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Virginia, just outside of Washington D.C. Posts: 3,604	Oh heck my bad and apologies, heck take out your street legal weapon and blast'em to heck. Do you really think if you had a gun in your face you could pull yours and shoot the bad guy before he dropped the hammer on you? Or droped it on the person it was pointed at?

07-16-2006, 05:05 PM	#18
Pred Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,873 Blog Entries: 3	What did I say that deserved a "chill" response? The whole back shooting thing was a joke, sort of. I don't have much respect for violent criminals. The color might be irrelevant, but I'd still like to know.

07-16-2006, 05:38 PM	#19
Dallas PUKHA DAWG Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Virginia, just outside of Washington D.C. Posts: 3,604	Then sorta chill. I felt personally attacked, I'll go to my corner if you go to yours.

07-16-2006, 06:22 PM	#20
Pred Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,873 Blog Entries: 3	LOL, ya got a deal. I was not trying to personally attack you. And I apologize if I came off that way.