When you talk about an old M1 Garand in "rack grade" condition with a shot-out barrel, what kind of realistic accuracy can you expect out of such a rifle as say a rifle with a good bore like you'd find in a prestine military issue rifle? How does accuracy typically vary depending on the condition of the bore? Obviously it's worse with a more worn barrel but at what point do you start to notice the groups getting larger and how big do they get?
i would not expect less than 3-4" groups from a rack grade rifle. the muzzle has a much larger bearing on accuracy than does the condition of the bore. all in all even this is not too bad of accuracy , as most people cant shoot good groups with iron sights.
My first M1 was an unissued, pristine, 1953 or '54 Springfield. It shot 10-12" groups with issue ball. I sent it down to Tennessee to an armorer and had it accurized. Then it would shoot 8-10" groups, with ball ammo. It finally shot a 1 3/4" group once, with handloads, but absolutely would not shoot issue ammo. I dumped it. So, you never can tell. All of my parts-guns , arsenal rebuilds, foreign returns..all shoot better than that new one did.
When I was in basic training in 1960, I was issued an old M1 that had a bore that looked like 40 miles of bad road. I don't remember the make or what kind of groups I shot. Mainly we used man-size pop-up targets at 100 to 300 yards. However, I did qualify Expert, but then I was 18 and had better eyesight and reflexes. I doubt I could do that today. But it convinced me the M1 can still shoot well even with a bad bore.
The barrel condition is supposed to be a good indicator of the capability of the rifle to shoot well; the reality is that some shoot very well with what appears to be a shot out or over cleaned barrel. Over cleaned is usually the problem when the muzzle wear is beyond a 3 MW condition. It is the result of the cleaning rod wearing against the muzzle, and use of either a segmented rod (issued with the rifle), or an aluminum cleaning rod.
Until about 1956 all (except all USGI .30 Carbine) USGI ammo was corrosive, and many barrels were not cleaned properly. On our ranges we had 55 gallon barrels of boiling soapy water and boiling clear water, where we had to dip the rifles after shooting.
Gyrene, are aluminum cleaning rods bad? I've got three of them, and that's what I see all the sporting goods stores selling. I did notice a solid graphite rod, which I thought was pretty neat, but expensive - $22. If at all possible I clean from the breach forward to the muzzle.
Seems to me I've read that 4 moa (4" @ 100 yds) was sufficient accuracy for military acceptance purposes. Many M1's, of course, will do lots better. And yes, a lot of 'em shoot very well indeed with fairly awful throat erosion and bores. The same is not true of muzzle wear, which is almost always caused by improper cleaning practices.
The material the cleaning rod's made from -- or whether or not it's segmented or not -- isn't really very important. What is important is what happens when it's used from the muzzle: all cleaning rods tend to "bow," and contact the lands of the bore. The solution is, as has been pointed out, to clean from the breech end (very difficlut with an M1!), or, alternatively, use a pull-through "thong" cleaner from the muzzle.
Or one could buy a muzzle guard to allow use of the cleaning rod from the muzzle. Brownell sells one made by Dewey, Brownell's stock nr 234-014-001 for $7.95 + s/h. It's also a good idea to use a cleaning rod that isn't too much smaller than the bore diameter. One wouldn't ususally, for example, want to clean a .30-caliber barrel with a cleaning rod disigned for a .17-caliber bore. (Not to say you can't, of course.) In any case, I've found that using a cleaning rod as a "pull-through" works like a charm. And don't forget to clean the chamber! An M3A1 combo tool is the best thing goin' for that; the "ratchet" chamber brushes aren't worth spit.
Coldwood, I took basic training the year before you did, in 1959. My M1 was a beat-up , much used International Harvester. But, it shot expert for me. It would shoot quarter-sized groups on the thousand-inch sighters. The pop-ups were child's play, we thought. 7 of us shot expert out of the whole company, and we were from the Dakotas, Wyoming and Montana. One of the range NCOs asked me if we were born with rifles in our hands.
aluminum cleaning rods are not good. you want either a polished stainless rod, or a coated stainless rod. there are many arguments for one over the other, all i can say is i prefer the polished stainless rods.
The problem with the aluminum cleaning rods, is that they always corrode leaving Aluminum Oxide at the surface (aluminum exposed to the air will combine with the available oxygen, at least on the surface, forming Aluminum Oxide). You may not be able to see it, but the Oxide begins forming shortly (within seconds) after cleaning it (whether you mechanically clean it or chemically clean it). Aluminum Oxide is one of the worlds best abrasives, next to diamonds, and Aluminum Oxide is one of the most prevalent materials found on the earth. Aluminum Cleaning rods should never be used, unless you want to change barrels frequently.
Stainless Steel is a very good material for a Cleaning Rod, and it is at its best when you can use a guide to keep it from contacting the lands in the barrel.
The teflon coated Cleaning Rods are supposed to be very good, but I see the teflon as a material that can get Aluminum Oxide embedded in it, and then it is worse than an Aluminum Cleaning Rod because you do not expect the problem.
As to bore snakes, how many times do you run a cleaning patch through your bore? Most of us discard a patch once it has been through the bore one time. I believe that a bore snake used one time and then cleaned before going back through the bore, might just be a good thing.
A thong (line) to clean the bore is a good thought. They used to be military issue, and I see them as working very well.
If at all possible, clean the bore from the breach end. Of course almost all the semi-auto rifles do not allow for that to be a possibility, there may be others, but the only one I am sure of is the FN-49 (all FN-49's).
As to cleaning a rifle or any handgun or shotgun, most are very definitely overcleaned. Since the advent of Non-Corrosive powder and primers, it is not necessary to clean the chamber and bore of a rifle, handgun, or shotgun every time they are used, unless they are going to be stored for a long period of time, and even then I question it. Anschutz, one of the foremost builders of super accurate .22 rimfire rifles, says to not clean the bore unless, you have lost accuracy, because the lead protects the bore. I would say that this holds for any firearm that is used to shoot lead bullets only.
My M1 is a Springfield Armory serial #528xxxx and it's bore is pretty worn looking but the rifling is still intact. I know the muzzle is too loose because you can put a bullet in it and it sinks right in to where the casing will meet with the muzzle. Most of my other guns with good muzzles will leave at least about a quarter inch of the bullet exposed. I'm not sure how it groups because I've never had a good chance to try it out. I had also noticed that the barrel and reciever can wiggle up and down slightly when mounted into the stock where it doesn't seem to fit too tightly. I would assume that can also make the rifle inaccurate.
I guess I was just wondering if the problems with my rifle would make it a completely lousy shot or if it still has merit as a service rifle. For me, even a 10-inch group at 100 yards would still be capable of hitting a human torso. Beyond that, I suppose there would be problems but even then with a accurate rifle, your eyesight and how steady you hold the rifle would make things challenging enough!
Thanks for the info on aluminum rods! And also on not cleaning. I've always been concerned that the residue would attract moisture and condensation and lead to rust.
I'll look for a stainless steel rod, or make a pull-through rig. For my .22 pistols, I just use a leather lace with a knot tied in it, wet the knot with oil and drag it through the bore a couple of times.
I know fiberglass rods are a no-no, they were popular for awhile with muzzleloaders. Do you know anything about graphite rods?
When you clean a rifle like an M1 simply insert the cleaning rod down the muzzle and screw the brush on when it clears the bore. No bowing, no scrubbing the lands or grooves in the wrong direction. it's simply the best way. You don't need a muzzle protector. Wen you screw the brush on to the cleaning rod simply pull it out and repeat the cycle over again. Clean in the same direction that the bullet is comine out of the barrel because if you don't you are basically moving dirt and contaminants back down the barrel to the chamber. Next time you fire the bullet catches the dirt and commences to scratching up the barrel.
The barrel condition is supposed to be a good indicator ..........use of either a segmented rod (issued with the rifle), or an aluminum cleaning rod.
Until about 1956 all (except all USGI .30 Carbine) USGI ammo was corrosive, and many barrels were not cleaned properly. ......
The military issued a segmented steel rod muzzle rasp. That kept the grit off the muzzle.
The barrel condition is supposed to be a good indicator of the capability of the rifle to shoot well; the reality is that some shoot very well with what appears to be a shot out or over cleaned barrel. Over cleaned is usually the problem when the muzzle wear is beyond a 3 MW condition. It is the result of the cleaning rod wearing against the muzzle, and use of either a segmented rod (issued with the rifle), or an aluminum cleaning rod.
Until about 1956 all (except all USGI .30 Carbine) USGI ammo was corrosive, and many barrels were not cleaned properly. On our ranges we had 55 gallon barrels of boiling soapy water and boiling clear water, where we had to dip the rifles after shooting.
I completley agree with gyrene watch your thumbs son
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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine
When you clean a rifle like an M1 simply insert the cleaning rod down the muzzle and screw the brush on when it clears the bore. No bowing, no scrubbing the lands or grooves in the wrong direction. it's simply the best way. You don't need a muzzle protector. Wen you screw the brush on to the cleaning rod simply pull it out and repeat the cycle over again. Clean in the same direction that the bullet is comine out of the barrel because if you don't you are basically moving dirt and contaminants back down the barrel to the chamber. Next time you fire the bullet catches the dirt and commences to scratching up the barrel.
