Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
There's little doubt who pulls the strings in Germany and Europe!
What a crock! I knew some nations (?) considered this a crime but, this really takes the cake. It's a shame that the authors of this crap don't try to clean up their reputation rather than punish those who don't agree. We also know, that the longer, the more ardently you tell a sad tail (Duh, it's been fifty years! Get over it!), the easier it is to accept as fact. Don't forget, the original lie was 9 million! After confrontation, revised back to 6 million, a number still doubtful for some folks. Don't get me wrong, I know the Germans were mean to some jews. I don't deny many suffered unfairly. But, this pity the jew crap just annoys me. I''m tired of hearing about it. If there was any fairness we'd also be treated to stories of how the Christians were slaughtered and tormented but, hey, it's not kosher to worry about no stinking Christian. My point is, why is it a crime if you simply don't want to follow the pity story and question the so called "facts"? And, to attempt to make this "questioning" a crime world wide? Well, I think we know who is behind it and frankly, this type of plot does not inspire any "pity" from me.
Germany Wants Entire EU To Make Holocaust Denial A Crime
Skip directly to the full story.
By DAN BILEFSKY The New York Times
Published: Jan 14, 2007
BERLIN - Germany wants to use its European Union presidency to push through legislation that would make denying the Holocaust punishable by stiff prison sentences in all 27 of the union's member states.
Germany's justice minister, Brigitte Zypries, said last week that Germany's commitment to combating racism and xenophobia - and keeping the memory of the Holocaust alive - was both an enduring historical obligation and a present-day political necessity.
"We have always said that it can't be the case that it should still be acceptable in Europe to say the Holocaust never existed and that 6 million Jews were never killed," she said.
Under the German proposal, she said, those who deny the Nazi slaughter of Jews could face up to three years in prison if convicted.
Zypries said the proposal, which will be debated by the bloc's justice ministers in the next six months, would also seek to criminalize racist declarations that are an incitement to violence against a person or group. The aim, she said, was to harmonize national legal systems in their approach to combating racism and xenophobia.
Unifying the handling of hate crimes in countries with vastly different legal cultures could prove difficult, legal analysts said. European leaders have been unanimous in condemning those who deny the Holocaust, and they sharply criticized the Iranian government for sponsoring a recent conference that sought to cast doubt on it.
But the question of whether to criminalize such acts has divided Europe. Germany sees a European Union law on denial as a moral imperative, but other countries, like Britain, Italy and Denmark, have resisted common rules as infringing on free speech.
Two years ago, Luxembourg tried to use its presidency of the European Union to push through similar legislation but was blocked by Italy.
Zypries said she is confident that Germany could succeed in overcoming such resistance because Italy, now led by a left-of-center prime minister, has dropped its opposition.
Gee, I feel so much better now knowing inquireing minds are in jail.
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"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
Last edited by Rufus Rhastus J; 01-14-2007 at 08:58 AM.
Don't you have something better to do with your life than rant against Jews, Rufe? With people like you kicking around worldwide, it's no wonder they feel paranoid.
Globally, prosecuting people for denying the holocaust will have the opposite effect that they're trying to achieve - Germany will appear to be the same dictatorial totalitarian state they once appeared to be.
Let people speak freely and deniers of the haulocaust will continue to be seen as fools and frauds. Censoring them is bad enough, but imprisoning them will make them into martyrs, playing directly into the hands of Iran.
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Trust is earned, not... GIVEN away. - Worf
Hmm, six million... Now where have I seen that number before
Let me guess: you're saying that since that old flyer claimed six million Jews and 800,000 children were starving in the aftermath of WWI, it proves there was no Holocaust during WWII when six million Jews, plus another four million Gypsies and other "racially inferior" people, were killed.
It's a pretty lame attempt at logical thinking, and I have no patience for that sort of nonsense. Those figures were arrived at by using the Nazi's own records, among other things, and a lot of resaearchers consider them to be low.
There are still people alive who survived the concentration camps and have numbers tattooed on their arms; go tell them, their children and their grandchildren the Holocaust never happened.
It's a pretty lame attempt at logical thinking, and I have no patience for that sort of nonsense. Those figures were arrived at by using the Nazi's own records, among other things, and a lot of people consider them to be low.
There are still people alive who survived the concentration camps and have numbers tattooed on their arms; go tell them, their children and their grandchildren the Holocaust never happened.
Right on target. When the perpetrators' own records support the claim, it is hard to ignore. It is a matter of fact, not conjecture or making up claims to support one's position. The Nazis were pretty darn meticulous about records keeping, including their exterminations.
Actually, at no point in my post(very short one at that) did I say the holocaust never happened. Troy is just following his, most of the time usual pattern of putting words in other peoples mouths, so to speak. But what I do find so hilarious is how quickly people become angry over this subject, even if they know nothing more then the two days they spent on it in 11th grade history. When you run out of patience with someone, it's because you've gotten angry.... Troy. Try it sometime. At some point you'll run across a conversation about the holocaust and how evil the Germans were(yes Germans, because our society and media have made German/Nazi the same word). Roll your eyes, snicker, or just say from a logistical standpoint it's impossible. Maybe bring up that aerial photographs from the allied planes have proved that some of the gas chambers and furnaces didn't exist until after the war. I even recall seeing a documentary in which the curator, I think, of one of the major concentration camps admitted the chambers were not built until after the Russians had taken over the camp towards the end of the war. Bring any of these things up, and people become enraged. When asked why, the only thing they can come up with is.... because.
No not really. When you run out of patience, it's because you've gotten frustrated. When you get frustrated you get upset, mad. When you get mad you get angry.
Actually, at no point in my post(very short one at that) did I say the holocaust never happened. Troy is just following his, most of the time usual pattern of putting words in other peoples mouths, so to speak. But what I do find so hilarious is how quickly people become angry over this subject, even if they know nothing more then the two days they spent on it in 11th grade history. When you run out of patience with someone, it's because you've gotten angry.... Troy. Try it sometime. At some point you'll run across a conversation about the holocaust and how evil the Germans were(yes Germans, because our society and media have made German/Nazi the same word). Roll your eyes, snicker, or just say from a logistical standpoint it's impossible. Maybe bring up that aerial photographs from the allied planes have proved that some of the gas chambers and furnaces didn't exist until after the war. I even recall seeing a documentary in which the curator, I think, of one of the major concentration camps admitted the chambers were not built until after the Russians had taken over the camp towards the end of the war. Bring any of these things up, and people become enraged. When asked why, the only thing they can come up with is.... because.
Are you now denying your post was intended to cast doubt on the existence or scope of the Holocaust?
It's news to me our society and our media have made German and Nazi synonymous. I was under the impression we stopped doing that sometime after the war, when West Germany and Austria became our allies. However, it's true that while not all Germans and Austrians were Nazis, the Nazis were definitely Germans and Austrians. It would be the most mindless sort of PC to ignore that basic truth.
I've never heard or read that the gas chambers at the camps weren't there until after the war. Forgive my skepticism, but at the moment you're my only reference for that little factoid.
I can't speak for others Pred, but I can explain why I get angry: I don't like revisionists of any sort who rewrite science or history to fit their agendas. That goes in spades for people who do it to promote bigotry.
Last edited by troy2000; 01-15-2007 at 04:19 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
No not really. When you run out of patience, it's because you've gotten frustrated. When you get frustrated you get upset, mad.
Yes, really. You are extrapolating in an illogical manner by drawing equations between an emotion and its possible yet not necessarily true progression. And NO, you don't necessarily run out of patience because you are frustrated. That is also a falsehood. Nor do people who are frustrated necessarily get angry.
Quote:
When you get mad you get angry.
Redundant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
I've never heard or read that the gas chambers at the camps weren't there until after the war. Forgive my skepticism, but at the moment you're my only reference for that little factoid.
Same here. I have read and watched a great deal on that time period and have never come across that particular conspiracy theory.
Quote:
I don't like revisionists of any sort who rewrite science or history to fit their agendas.
Ditto. If anyone is aware of that one, it is T2000 and myself. Rewriting history is one of my pet peeves.
Last edited by troylaplante; 01-15-2007 at 04:45 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Are you now denying your post was intended to cast doubt on the existence or scope of the Holocaust?
Now denying? When did I say my post was meant to cast doubt? The point of my post was to show that 6 million had been thrown around before, so take it for what you want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
It's news to me our society and our media have made German and Nazi synonymous. I was under the impression we stopped doing that sometime after the war, when West Germany and Austria became our allies. However, it's true that while not all Germans and Austrians were Nazis, the Nazis were definitely Germans and Austrians. It would be the most mindless sort of PC to ignore that basic truth.
Then I would say you might try broadening the scope of people you talk to. Even now when the word German comes up, someone brings up Nazi within about 30 seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
I've never heard or read that the gas chambers at the camps weren't there until after the war. Forgive my skepticism, but at the moment you're my only reference for that little factoid.
It was the director of the Auschwitz State Museum, Dr. Piper who admitted that that the gas-chamber known as Krema I was constructed after the war ended, on the direct order of Stalin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
I can't speak for others Pred, but I can explain why I get angry: I don't like revisionists of any sort who rewrite science or history to fit their agendas. That goes in spades for people who do it to promote bigotry.
So your saying, to question certain historical events, is meant to promote bigotry? I find that a little hard to believe. If a person is allowed to question events and try to research them, to find out for sure if things happened the way we were told, should they not be allowed to question ALL events? Because frankly, your way of thinking is whats slowly stripping Europe's right to freedom of speech.
You didn't have to say, "the following statement is meant to cast doubt," Pred. I believe the average person is bright enough to figure that out simply by reading it.
Freedom of speech isn't a license to replace actual history with what you'd like to believe happened. Your particular motive for attempting to do so is to promote your dislike and distrust of Jews in general, and yes: that's bigotry.
Ok, I've thought about how I want to answer this post, so I figured a few beers might help me out. Anymore freedom of speech really means this, "You can talk about whatever you want as long as it doesn't deal with a few subjects. Those few subjects, you need to keep your mouth shut and smile and wave." The holocaust, is one of these subjects. Could it be because it was so horrific? Naa, I don't think so. Theres been many horrific acts through history we talk about, discuss, and even disagree with, and no one really cares... Ok, I've gotten board with this subject. In the end, we're both closed minded to each others point of views. I refuse to be brain feed facts and told I must believe them, simply because I must. And you refuse to even remotely listen to someone who doesn't follow the sheeple. Now wheres my other beer....
Ok, I've thought about how I want to answer this post, so I figured a few beers might help me out. Anymore freedom of speech really means this, "You can talk about whatever you want as long as it doesn't deal with a few subjects. Those few subjects, you need to keep your mouth shut and smile and wave." The holocaust, is one of these subjects. Could it be because it was so horrific? Naa, I don't think so. Theres been many horrific acts through history we talk about, discuss, and even disagree with, and no one really cares... Ok, I've gotten board with this subject. In the end, we're both closed minded to each others point of views. I refuse to be brain feed facts and told I must believe them, simply because I must. And you refuse to even remotely listen to someone who doesn't follow the sheeple. Now wheres my other beer....
In America, you have the right to spout off with any half-baked theory you want. On the other hand, I think I have not only a right but a duty to speak up when I think the facts are being twisted. And there's a world of difference between stopping you from speaking, vs rebutting what you say.
I dunno where your other beer is. I ran out about an hour ago, and I'm on my second glass of red wine. I'm starting to think I should've started with the wine, and saved the beer...but I guess it's irrelevent; I'm on my way to bed anyway.
There's little doubt who pulls the strings in Germany and Europe! 
What a crock! I knew some nations (?) considered this a crime but, this really takes the cake. It's a shame that the authors of this crap don't try to clean up their reputation rather than punish those who don't agree. We also know, that the longer, the more ardently you tell a sad tail (Duh, it's been fifty years! Get over it!), the easier it is to accept as fact. Don't forget, the original lie was 9 million! After confrontation, revised back to 6 million, a number still doubtful for some folks.
Don't get me wrong, I know the Germans were mean to some jews. I don't deny many suffered unfairly. But, this pity the jew crap just annoys me. I''m tired of hearing about it. If there was any fairness we'd also be treated to stories of how the Christians were slaughtered and tormented but, hey, it's not kosher to worry about no stinking Christian.
My point is, why is it a crime if you simply don't want to follow the pity story and question the so called "facts"? And, to attempt to make this "questioning" a crime world wide? Well, I think we know who is behind it and frankly, this type of plot does not inspire any "pity" from me.
What's your point, Pred? 
