Feds seeking 7 years for another Texas cop

[Rave]

[Calvin]

Frozen, just because his life "was no longer in danger", what about the part of this where his life was in danger? Standing on the side of the road with a bunch of people hopping from a vehicle you've got stopped is NOT something they teach you in the academy. He's alone, outnumbered, and I am sure extremely nervous. Remember, cops get killed that way all the time! Matter of fact, the first dashcam video of an officer getting killed was a Texas constable who pulled over 4 illegals. They all got out of the vehicle and jumped him. Took his revolver and shot him 5 times. That is something they teach you and, believe me, it's on your mind on every single traffic stop, call response, and even when someone pulls up to your car asking you something. Me, personally, I have either my duty or backup weapon in hand when someone pulls up to my cruiser, and it's hidden from view but ready in a split second. It's the "rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it" doctrine.
Like I have said many times, we have the luxury of armchair quarterbacking this to death. But, the fact remains none of us were there. I can tell you for sure that you cannot see the outcome of something like that when it's happening. How was he supposed to know the situation would (supposedly) de-escalate? He didn't have the luxury (or extra life) to wait and see what happened in the future.
As far as I'm concerned, he did his job in the end- he went home to his family and lived to fight another day.

[Pred]

Originally Posted by frozentorso

I think you guys are missing the point. His life was no longer in danger. Police cant just start shooting at fleeing vehicles.

To avoid what could soon follow, I'll simply say that I believe you are wrong and will never agree with your statement. Let me ask you this Frozen. If our boys in Iraq were jumped by some insurgents, then they ran away, would you feel the same rules should apply to the soldiers as the cop? Cause once they started running, our soldiers lives would no longer be in danger.

[Calvin]

Before someone tries to chastize me for having my weapon out when someone "just approaches" me while I'm in my cruiser and may not appear to be a threat, let me explain.
With the CCW passage, offiers here can approach under the assumption that each and every vehicle is armed. It affords the officers a chance to get ahead on some of the curve we're already behind on approach. Same goes for anyone approaching that could, with articulate suspicion, be hiding something.
Is it commonplace to have my weapon out each and every time I meet someone? Not at all. But, the cruiser is the worst place to be if a fight starts at your window. And, if it's late and I get that felling something isn't or may not be right, remember this one thing- I'm going home at the end of my shift. I take every precaution I can because a couple of officers who were my friends have been killed in the line of duty.
In short, when you're out doing this job you have so many things to consider and things happen at the speed of life (or death). It's not enough to worry about lawsuits, reprimands, judicial reviews, IA, public distrust, and just generally being able to do the job you've sworn to do. Add to that the fact you are mostly alone and cannot predict the future to know you're gonna make it out okay. And, LE isn't the only career like that. Just about all are, but cops deal with the bad side of people and some people are REALLY bad! If you want to know what it's like (somewhat), I invite you to call your local PD or SO and ask for a ridealong. And, don't go just once-go often. Get to know your officers and ask questions. Most are happy to oblige and welcome the opportunity to help change misconceptions about the police. You just may end up in the middle of a poop-storm. And that's when you'll understand why this officer reacted the way he did. Betcha 10-1 that this officer reacted the way he was taught to in his academy. Is it the right choice? Dunno, but from what I've read I would say he did the right thing.

[troy2000]

And it can't be said enough times that even if he was wrong, it was an error in judgment during a fast-moving, dangerous situation. Not a crime.

[frozentorso]

Thank you, Troy. Thats all I'm saying.

Pred, I respect your opinion also. You're a smart gyuy. I underestand I'm in the minority here. I'm just trying to present the facts unemotionally. But Iraq is a whole different situation. We're at war with people who are trying to kill us. For the most part, the illegals coming into this country are passive(although if we had more cops firing on fleeing illegals we'd have a lot less illegals).

Calvin, I personally would have a hand on my weapon every time I pulled a car over. I've seen too many videos. You've got more guts than me! If the van was coming at him he would have been justified in shooting. But the van was speeding away, and he was clearly not in danger anymore. He shot before the van crashed, not after, so armed illegals were never an issue. If you were in a situation where you had someone pulled over and they sped off as you asked for I.D., would it be legal in your jurisdiction to start shooting? It wasnt in his. The problem is trying to be objective about a subjective situation.

Just to make myself clear one more time: I could not judge Hernandez for what he did. I probably would have done the same thing. But he clearly broke the rules. His punishment was completely inappropriate. I would have given him a week off with pay. If you read my posts you can see I'm very anti-illegal immigration. But there was no gray area in the law, just how you interperate it when faced with the situation.

[Pred]

Originally Posted by frozentorso

Pred, I respect your opinion also. You're a smart guy. I understand I'm in the minority here. I'm just trying to present the facts unemotionally. But Iraq is a whole different situation. We're at war with people who are trying to kill us. For the most part, the illegals coming into this country are passive(although if we had more cops firing on fleeing illegals we'd have a lot less illegals).

Thank you. You are right to an extent. True, the illegals that are coming here just want jobs and better pay. HOWEVER, the men trying to kill our soldiers and a van of illegals trying to run down a cop fall in the same category it me, someone or a group who is trying to kill someone who is serving our country. This is why I disagreed with what you said.

[frozentorso]

Agreed. The rules of engagement are different in both situations, but if it were up to me, I'd of used a chain gun on them.

[Calvin]

Thanks, Frozen. I agree with your overall view of what happened and respect your opinion. All I can do is try to give you a sense of what it's like when a car pulls away from you during a stop.
In answer to your question about shoot/no-shoot in this situation, I would be 100% justified in firing if the vehicle made contact with me in any way. And judging from the video of this particular stop, the driver clearly turned his steering wheel hard to the left and then took off. There's only one reason for that and that is to try to hit the officer. Had the driver just took off in a straight line I would feel somewhat different about this.

[Rufus Rhastus J]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Before someone tries to chastize me for having my weapon out when someone "just approaches" me while I'm in my cruiser and may not appear to be a threat, let me explain.
With the CCW passage, offiers here can approach under the assumption that each and every vehicle is armed. It affords the officers a chance to get ahead on some of the curve we're already behind on approach. Same goes for anyone approaching that could, with articulate suspicion, be hiding something.
Is it commonplace to have my weapon out each and every time I meet someone? Not at all. But, the cruiser is the worst place to be if a fight starts at your window. And, if it's late and I get that felling something isn't or may not be right, remember this one thing- I'm going home at the end of my shift. I take every precaution I can because a couple of officers who were my friends have been killed in the line of duty.
In short, when you're out doing this job you have so many things to consider and things happen at the speed of life (or death). It's not enough to worry about lawsuits, reprimands, judicial reviews, IA, public distrust, and just generally being able to do the job you've sworn to do. Add to that the fact you are mostly alone and cannot predict the future to know you're gonna make it out okay. And, LE isn't the only career like that. Just about all are, but cops deal with the bad side of people and some people are REALLY bad! If you want to know what it's like (somewhat), I invite you to call your local PD or SO and ask for a ridealong. And, don't go just once-go often. Get to know your officers and ask questions. Most are happy to oblige and welcome the opportunity to help change misconceptions about the police. You just may end up in the middle of a poop-storm. And that's when you'll understand why this officer reacted the way he did. Betcha 10-1 that this officer reacted the way he was taught to in his academy. Is it the right choice? Dunno, but from what I've read I would say he did the right thing.

I try to make the situation more safe for us both. While I dislike law enforcement officers, for my own reasons, I still appreciate that while I think they suck, they, and me, don't want to get shot! If I am stopped, for whatever reason, since my vehicle windows are darkly tinted, I will roll down the glass and, since I drive mostly at night, turn on the interior light, so the officer can see I am being cool and obeying his/her orders. It's a simple thing to do that I feel, relieves some of the tension a vehicle stop makes during the night, especially.

[Calvin]

That's nice of you, Rufus. I'm sure officers appreciate you doing that.
It's a shame you think LE officers suck, too. Not all officers are bad people.

[Pred]

Lets see, I've been pulled over three times and have gotten two tickets. The first ticket was a joke though. Hehe, some buddies and I were on our way to drag race. So I'm driving around the bypass in the left hand lane and my buddy is passing me in the right, yet I get the ticket. 67 in a 55 zone. The second ticket was by a state trooper, koopatroopas as I call them. I took off around a friend and got up to like 125mph in my T-Bird. So I pull into a station to turn around and see the blue lights come over the hill. I thought, "Oh lord, I'm screwed for sure". So he comes up and asked if I knew what I got pulled over for, I said "Yes sir." Then he told me he was going to give me a ticket for improper passing, I said "YES SIR, YES SIR." However he got me for no seatbelt. True, I did take it off once I got into the station and saw his lights. I think I was also going in to get something to drink. It was funny, I said "So officer, are you sure theres not something we can do to forget about this." He kind of stopped, turned back around and said "Yep, you can pay the fine, have a good day." I said thank you and drove home. The first time I got pulled over though was in front of my house. For some reason I went to get out of the car(guess cause I was at home), they didn't like that to much. So the officer(who actually pulled me over the second time come to think of it) took my license and kind of chuckled a bit when he saw the address. He let me off with a warning(they never clocked me, just heard my car). No wait, I did get another ticket LOL, forgot about that one. I got pulled over for having expired tags. Not to mention my license was invalid cause I moved, and no proof of insurance. Next thing I know I've got three cop cars behind me with their lights on(have really dark tinted windows). After the first officer walked up to my car I guess he told the others to leave. But yeah, whenever I get pulled over I make sure to roll down my windows and put both hands on the wheel just to keep them calm. If I have to get in my glove box I always tell them first, actually I think I ask them just to be safe.

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by Calvin

That's nice of you, Rufus. I'm sure officers appreciate you doing that.
It's a shame you think LEO officers suck, too. Not all officers are bad people.

I had a couple of very unpleasant encounters when I was young: one with a hostile older officer who flat told me he "hated hippies," and one young, nervous one who pointed a very shaky gun at me.

I don't blame all officers, and most I've dealt with since have been very professional. But I also don't take chances. On the rare occasion I get pulled over I turn on my interior light, lay my wallet on the dashboard, and put both hands on the steering wheel. I don't want to encourage a belligerent one, and I sure don't want to spook a scared one.

[frozentorso]

I once had the priviledge of repoing a truck down in Laredo. First thing I did when I got off the plane was to call it in to the Laredo P.D. as a repo. I popped it that night and stopped to buy a coke later that evening. As I pulled into the store 4 cop cars surrounded me and drug me out at gun-point. Someone forgot to pass the repo info along. Scared the !!!! out of me for awhile. I just layed there, flat on the floor of the back of the cruiser till they figured it out. And I remained very polite after they apologized and un-cuffed me. I figure the patrol officers were just doing their job.

[Rufus Rhastus J]

Originally Posted by Calvin

That's nice of you, Rufus. I'm sure officers appreciate you doing that.
It's a shame you think LE officers suck, too. Not all officers are bad people.

Not all are bad, just most. We used to have, maybe we still do have, a few police as members. you should have heard them bragging how they could do this and they could do that , at traffic stops of when they went to calls....all of which, they clearly knew was immoral but, hey, they could....so they did. Who do you think will be the front line at confiscation time? And who do you think has no conscience when in the uniform "just doing their duty?" Yes, I agree, we do need police officers. Our society probably would go wild without them. My problem with them, in general, is the fact they see themselves as "law enforcement". We have courts for that. Besides the fact I have never had a good experience with the law, I've always gotten the sense they were trying to get me on something other than my ticket. So, screw them! I do my best to not even see them if I can avoid it. And the very last thing I want to do is interact with them....better they do their thing and I do mine....two ships passing in the night. I know the day is coming when good citizens will become criminals and at that point, we will have to face the police as our enemy. I've heard all the bull about how the police will not follow illegal orders and blah, blah, blah. But, as stated above, listening to those members both past and present, well, they don't exactly inspire any confidence. Just my opinion.

[billt]

The thing to remember about cops is the fact they deal with mostly the total scum of the Earth on a daily basis. After a while it hardens you. It has to or else you'll either cease to be a cop, or else get killed. Also, you never know at what sequence you will be pulled over. By that I mean what was the cop doing just before he stopped YOU? Was he mearly on patrol, or did he just come from a bad situation where he just encountered a disrespectful no good? Perhaps he was just spat upon, cursed out, or worse. Maybe he had to chase some punk thru 15 back yards, and end up tired, sweaty and out of breath. Try and imagine if that happened to you at work? What mood would it put you in for the rest of the day? A lot of people can go home from work if something happens that ruins their day. Cops can't. It all adds up to a crappy job that always doesn't leave you in the best frame of mind. While that is no excuse for a cop to be a jerk, it at least explains a lot of it. Their divorce rate isn't one of the highest because their job is so wonderful. Bill T.

[Rufus Rhastus J]

BillT, Didn't consider that side of the story. I must admit, when looked at from your example, I can sorta see what you are talking about. However, that does not excuse my charges, though they are fiction since I am not there to witness (notice that choice of words?)and, the point, in time, I refer to has not arrived. I guess it is fair to say, that remains to be seen. But, like I've said of the military, when told to go door to door and collect arms, I'll bet at least 98% will obey. I expect the percentage of police to be even higher. Question: Are those who join the police/sheriff departments required to take and oath? And does that oath include phrases like uphold justice, honesty, or mention parts of the constitution or bill of rights in anyway? I know how the politicos ignore this but, I wonder what justification the "law enforcement" folks use to excuse how they lie for each other's wrong doing, live with themselves when they do morally objectionable things just because they can or how they could even consider disarming normal Americans whether "it's the law" or not. I know there must be decent and considerate folks out there who really want to make our lives better....but, sadly, I believe there are more who have other objectives and many who don't even think about the betterment of society.

[Calvin]

Here's my oath, Rufus. I will print it in its entirety for you;

I, Calvin Logsdon, do solemnly swear (affirm) that I will support the Constitution of the United States of America and the Constitution of the State of Ohio. And that I will faithfully, honestly, and impartially discharge the duties of the Ansonia Police Officer of the Village of Ansonia, Ohio during the continuance in said position.

Hope that helps you some, Rufus.

Also, please remember that I put my pants on the same way as you do. The only difference between you and I socially is that I became a police officer- nothing more. I do not go out of my way to make your life miserable. I just do the job I've sworn to do.
Am I for gun control? Not on your life. Will I go door-to-door to confiscate? I'll go door-to-door with a speech like, "Good afternoon, ma'am/sir. I'm a police officer sent here to let you know the government is wanting to confiscate your guns. Just thought you should know. Have a nice day". Am I doing my job? Yep. I'm there letting them know what's going on and since I physically didn't see any guns, they must not have them. Oh, well! I'll check the next house.

Bill, thanks for pointing out the many wonderful aspects of being a cop! You are right on the money!!

[frozentorso]

Good cops, bad cops. Good politicians, bad politicians. Good doctors, bad doctors. Good shots, bad shots. The human condition at work.

[Pred]

Originally Posted by frozentorso

Good politicians

Where?