Stupid navigation books

Klaus · 06-30-2002, 12:02 AM

Just got a new book on kayaking. I was reading the section on navigation and came across the oft repeated but totally incorrect assertion that compasses poit to the Earth's North Magnetic Pole which is about a thousand miles from the Geographic North Pole. Does anyone besides me know what is wrong with this statement. Hint: there are 2 glaring errors. Anyone who remembers anything from elementry school science class should be able to get it.

06-30-2002, 12:24 AM

I thought it was 15 degrees off...but what do I know ?, I barely remember Social Studies and only because Wendy was in that class too...

Klaus · 06-30-2002, 12:56 AM

No, the errors are WAY bigger than that. Think about how a compass works.

alan c. · 06-30-2002, 06:37 AM

Unless you live in Cincinnati, Ohio--then magnetic north and true north are in line.

06-30-2002, 09:34 AM

Okay...all magnets have a north side & therefore a southside...if you put a magnet on something that can float & support it's weight you wind up with a magnet...then the trick is finding out which side is which. They aren't fallible though...tornadoes & hurricanes are proven to be magnetic & electrical disturbances...other magnetic disturbances may impact it's accuracy

Klaus · 06-30-2002, 10:12 AM

Alan, you are wrong. The Earth's Magnetic North Pole is IN ANTARCTICA!!!!! Compasses point to the Earth's South Magnetic Pole. A compass needle is a bar maget. Magnets have poles called North and South because that is the way they line up when the magnet is suspended. Compasses are set up, by convention, to have the North Pole of the needle marked. If you remember elementry school physics, on magnets, OPPOSITE poles attract, LIKE poles repel. So the two big errors, often found in navigation books, is that compasses poit to the Earth's North Magnetic Pole, and that the Earth's North Magnetic Pole is anywhere near the Earth's North Geographic Pole.

wes · 06-30-2002, 11:14 AM

Huh,so THAT'S why I keep ending up in South America.

Klaus · 06-30-2002, 04:04 PM

To simplify, the Earth's South Magnetic Pole is Geographically North.

Eric · 06-30-2002, 04:29 PM

And whatever area you are in you need to know the GM angle (the variation between grid and magnetic north) in order to convert your compass reading to one you can use on a map or vice versa. The formula we always use for conversion is "east is least and west is best, when converting grid to magnetic" if it is an easterly angle you subtract the degrees/mils if it is west you add, that takes you from the map to your compass and it's vice versa to go compass to map...more worthless knowledge

DANA · 06-30-2002, 06:12 PM

WHEN I FLEW GRID NAV WE ALWAYS CALLED IT AGRIVATION. I STILL HAVE SOME UNUSED GRID CHARTS FROM THE 50S BUT I WONDER WHY I KEPT THEM. MUST HAVE BEEN A WEAK MOMENT. BUT I STILL USE MY E6B ON OCATION. (IT IS IN MY DESK ) TODAY GPS AND COMPUTERS RULE THE WORLD. NOT MUCH DR AND NO SLOPS OR PLOPS. NEVER COULD SEE WHY PRESSURE PATTEN WORKED OVER LAND AS WELL AS WATER

DANA

alan c. · 06-30-2002, 06:23 PM

Well Klaus what can I say I just quoted what I read fom a camping book dated 1964. SO I AM NOT WRONG-- the book is. I was always taught that north was up and that south is down. Does that mean that the USA is south america and that south america is north america.

Klaus · 06-30-2002, 07:28 PM

No, you are misunderstanding what I said, totally. I said that the Earth's MAGNETIC north pole is in Antartica. The Earth's South MAGNETIC pole is near the geographic North Pole, which is why compasses point North. I said nothing about reading maps. Are people getting confused between the MAGNETIC and GEOGRAPHIC poles? I thought I made the distinction clear. BTW, it is not coincidence that the Magnetic and Geographic poles are near each other. The Earth's Magnetic field is largely generated by convection currents in the core. These are sensitive to the Coriolis effect, caused by the Earth's spin. This makes the poles line up, roughly. Sometimes the currents get disrupted and the Magnetic poles reverse.

alan c. · 06-30-2002, 07:49 PM

Well thats what I get for not being the rocket scientist in the family.

wes · 06-30-2002, 07:59 PM

Ok,I get it. The Earth's magnetism is generated by two Poles,in Poland,right?

alan c. · 06-30-2002, 08:09 PM

Ok Klaus: call me dense. Ok you are thinking--why doesn't this guy get it? I don't know why not? Well it's what I do best -- acting stupid.

Snakebite · 06-30-2002, 08:59 PM

Well, a subject I actually know something about. Yup, Klaus is right and the earths north and south poles do not remain constant. The other saying about east is least and west is best applies to what I do for a living....setting solar panels. If I cant position a panel facing true south (not magnetic south) I try to position it facing more of a westerly direction.

alan c. · 06-30-2002, 09:12 PM

Look leave me out of this--apparently I don't have the intellectual mindset to continue.
In other words. :guitar: :guitar: :guitar: :guitar: :guitar:
Yeah I know Joe I wanted my own heavy metal band.

Oxford · 06-30-2002, 09:46 PM

Why do I find myself laughing out loud at AlanC's comments on this thread? His humor is better than the serious stuff about south being north and north being south. Guess Christopher Columbus used the wrong compass, too.

Now where does declination angle get into this picture? How many degrees should we adjust our sights because of the declination angle? (ha)

Oxford

Klaus · 06-30-2002, 10:02 PM

Look guys, get a bar magnet, with the poles marked. Lay the magnet on top of a drawing of the globe. Bring a compass near it. Then you will see which way the bar magnet, representing the Earth's magnetic field, has to be oriented to get the compass to point to the North geographic pole of the drawing. Once again, LIKE POLES REPEL, OPPOSITE POLES ATTRACT! ARGHHHHHH. Why does no one understand this?

wes · 06-30-2002, 10:08 PM

I just don't know why North and South Polish people can't get along,and why they need to have magnets in a bar.

06-30-2002, 12:02 AM	#1
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	Stupid navigation books Just got a new book on kayaking. I was reading the section on navigation and came across the oft repeated but totally incorrect assertion that compasses poit to the Earth's North Magnetic Pole which is about a thousand miles from the Geographic North Pole. Does anyone besides me know what is wrong with this statement. Hint: there are 2 glaring errors. Anyone who remembers anything from elementry school science class should be able to get it. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

06-30-2002, 12:56 AM	#3
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	No, the errors are WAY bigger than that. Think about how a compass works. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!" Last edited by Klaus; 06-30-2002 at 01:04 AM.

06-30-2002, 10:12 AM	#6
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	Alan, you are wrong. The Earth's Magnetic North Pole is IN ANTARCTICA!!!!! Compasses point to the Earth's South Magnetic Pole. A compass needle is a bar maget. Magnets have poles called North and South because that is the way they line up when the magnet is suspended. Compasses are set up, by convention, to have the North Pole of the needle marked. If you remember elementry school physics, on magnets, OPPOSITE poles attract, LIKE poles repel. So the two big errors, often found in navigation books, is that compasses poit to the Earth's North Magnetic Pole, and that the Earth's North Magnetic Pole is anywhere near the Earth's North Geographic Pole. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

06-30-2002, 04:04 PM	#8
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	To simplify, the Earth's South Magnetic Pole is Geographically North. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

06-30-2002, 04:29 PM	#9
Eric Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: USA Posts: 673	And whatever area you are in you need to know the GM angle (the variation between grid and magnetic north) in order to convert your compass reading to one you can use on a map or vice versa. The formula we always use for conversion is "east is least and west is best, when converting grid to magnetic" if it is an easterly angle you subtract the degrees/mils if it is west you add, that takes you from the map to your compass and it's vice versa to go compass to map...more worthless knowledge __________________ I told him straight up, "You are an idiot for bringing those two fists to this gun fight."

06-30-2002, 12:24 AM	#2
Logansdad Guest Posts: n/a	I thought it was 15 degrees off...but what do I know ?, I barely remember Social Studies and only because Wendy was in that class too...

06-30-2002, 06:37 AM	#4
alan c. Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	Unless you live in Cincinnati, Ohio--then magnetic north and true north are in line.

06-30-2002, 09:34 AM	#5
Logansdad Guest Posts: n/a	Okay...all magnets have a north side & therefore a southside...if you put a magnet on something that can float & support it's weight you wind up with a magnet...then the trick is finding out which side is which. They aren't fallible though...tornadoes & hurricanes are proven to be magnetic & electrical disturbances...other magnetic disturbances may impact it's accuracy

06-30-2002, 11:14 AM	#7
wes Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Loveland Co Posts: 1,906	Huh,so THAT'S why I keep ending up in South America.

06-30-2002, 06:12 PM	#10
DANA Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: WAITSFIELD VERMONT Posts: 1,595	GRID NAV WHEN I FLEW GRID NAV WE ALWAYS CALLED IT AGRIVATION. I STILL HAVE SOME UNUSED GRID CHARTS FROM THE 50S BUT I WONDER WHY I KEPT THEM. MUST HAVE BEEN A WEAK MOMENT. BUT I STILL USE MY E6B ON OCATION. (IT IS IN MY DESK ) TODAY GPS AND COMPUTERS RULE THE WORLD. NOT MUCH DR AND NO SLOPS OR PLOPS. NEVER COULD SEE WHY PRESSURE PATTEN WORKED OVER LAND AS WELL AS WATER DANA

06-30-2002, 06:23 PM	#11
alan c. Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	Well Klaus what can I say I just quoted what I read fom a camping book dated 1964. SO I AM NOT WRONG-- the book is. I was always taught that north was up and that south is down. Does that mean that the USA is south america and that south america is north america. Last edited by alan c.; 06-30-2002 at 06:28 PM.

06-30-2002, 07:28 PM	#12
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	No, you are misunderstanding what I said, totally. I said that the Earth's MAGNETIC north pole is in Antartica. The Earth's South MAGNETIC pole is near the geographic North Pole, which is why compasses point North. I said nothing about reading maps. Are people getting confused between the MAGNETIC and GEOGRAPHIC poles? I thought I made the distinction clear. BTW, it is not coincidence that the Magnetic and Geographic poles are near each other. The Earth's Magnetic field is largely generated by convection currents in the core. These are sensitive to the Coriolis effect, caused by the Earth's spin. This makes the poles line up, roughly. Sometimes the currents get disrupted and the Magnetic poles reverse. __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

06-30-2002, 07:49 PM	#13
alan c. Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	Well thats what I get for not being the rocket scientist in the family.

06-30-2002, 07:59 PM	#14
wes Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Loveland Co Posts: 1,906	Ok,I get it. The Earth's magnetism is generated by two Poles,in Poland,right?

06-30-2002, 08:09 PM	#15
alan c. Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	Ok Klaus: call me dense. Ok you are thinking--why doesn't this guy get it? I don't know why not? Well it's what I do best -- acting stupid. Last edited by alan c.; 06-30-2002 at 08:16 PM.

06-30-2002, 08:59 PM	#16
Snakebite Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tucson, Mexico Posts: 1,839	Well, a subject I actually know something about. Yup, Klaus is right and the earths north and south poles do not remain constant. The other saying about east is least and west is best applies to what I do for a living....setting solar panels. If I cant position a panel facing true south (not magnetic south) I try to position it facing more of a westerly direction.

06-30-2002, 09:12 PM	#17
alan c. Banned Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pasadena,Tejas - also known as Texas Posts: 3,767 Images: 15	Look leave me out of this--apparently I don't have the intellectual mindset to continue. In other words. :guitar: :guitar: :guitar: :guitar: :guitar: Yeah I know Joe I wanted my own heavy metal band. Last edited by alan c.; 06-30-2002 at 09:25 PM.

06-30-2002, 09:46 PM	#18
Oxford Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Gladstone, Missouri Posts: 13,022 Blog Entries: 4	Alan's One Liners Are The Best! Why do I find myself laughing out loud at AlanC's comments on this thread? His humor is better than the serious stuff about south being north and north being south. Guess Christopher Columbus used the wrong compass, too. Now where does declination angle get into this picture? How many degrees should we adjust our sights because of the declination angle? (ha) Oxford __________________ "If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right".

06-30-2002, 10:02 PM	#19
Klaus Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Cypress, Texas Posts: 2,383	Look guys, get a bar magnet, with the poles marked. Lay the magnet on top of a drawing of the globe. Bring a compass near it. Then you will see which way the bar magnet, representing the Earth's magnetic field, has to be oriented to get the compass to point to the North geographic pole of the drawing. Once again, LIKE POLES REPEL, OPPOSITE POLES ATTRACT! ARGHHHHHH. Why does no one understand this? __________________ "Gee, Wally, Eddie Haskel's mom puts out!"

06-30-2002, 10:08 PM	#20
wes Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Loveland Co Posts: 1,906	I just don't know why North and South Polish people can't get along,and why they need to have magnets in a bar.