Police Ammo Shortage?

[ezearln]

CI your scenario is interesting and yes I suppose if all the correct elements were in place it is possible but from what I see not very likely. But I truly wonder if the government would really consider getting into a pi**ing contest with manufactuers making something as vital as ammunition when they haven't the guts to rein in big oil (an even more essential military commodity)

[Kale]

I guess this drives home the benefit of having LE use different ammo from the military... The lack of .223 is disturbing.
On that note, maybe the cops should start using this:

Barrett Firearms’ M468 6.8 Remington SPC

The military is still playing catch-up on the ammo front, so why shouldn't LE jump ahead?
It's like going from 9mm vs .40 S&W: they did it for pistols, why not for rifles?

[Calvin]

Some officers are carrying 6.8 AR's. I know of some carrying SKS's, M1 carines, M14's, M1 Garands and either CETME's or FAL's.
For unclear reasons, no department I'm aware of will let officers carry AK's at all. I shouldn't say "unclear", but more like "idiotic". AK's are too demonic to most "chiefs" and that's the rub.
The bottom line is that officers are going to be burdened with only semi-annual quals at most departments, some going to only once a year. Even if you practice the same scenarios on your own time, it does not count. I know of a few officers who could use semi-weekly quals due to their less than satisfactory range performance.

[CrazyIvan]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Some officers are carrying 6.8 AR's. I know of some carrying SKS's, M1 carines, M14's, M1 Garands and either CETME's or FAL's.
For unclear reasons, no department I'm aware of will let officers carry AK's at all. I shouldn't say "unclear", but more like "idiotic". AK's are too demonic to most "chiefs" and that's the rub.
The bottom line is that officers are going to be burdened with only semi-annual quals at most departments, some going to only once a year. Even if you practice the same scenarios on your own time, it does not count. I know of a few officers who could use semi-weekly quals due to their less than satisfactory range performance.

I think AK's are not allowed because they look 'terorristic' because of all the bad press they get. The media and govt. put emphasis on the weapons more than the user. So, it would be bad publicity to have cops running around with Hadji rifles, because that would make the public think they are inciting terrorism.

[troy2000]

I agree; bad guys have been carrying AK's for so long that there's a stigma attached to them; the press would have a field day with officers "mowing suspects down with Ak-47's."

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Some officers are carrying 6.8 AR's. I know of some carrying SKS's, M1 carines, M14's, M1 Garands and either CETME's or FAL's.

I'm assuming those are personal choices rather than the policy of a department? Are there departments that have an official long arm other than .223? Or instead are most long arm decisions ad hoc?

[phoenix79]

What I want to know is why my 7.62x25 Tokarev had to go up in price from ~$13/box to ~$20. This is winchester white box that is widely known that it is actually made in the Czech Republic by S&B. Winchester has very little cost in this stuff but they jack up the price anyway...

[troy2000]

Originally Posted by phoenix79

What I want to know is why my 7.62x25 Tokarev had to go up in price from ~$13/box to ~$20. This is winchester white box that is widely known that it is actually made in the Czech Republic by S&B. Winchester has very little cost in this stuff but they jack up the price anyway...

Don't overlook the rising price of copper, brass and probably lead, phoenix. The price of scrap has gone up so much that people are vandalizing home and business air conditioners to sell the copper coils.

I'm not saying that accounts for all the increase, but it's probably a good chunk of it.

[Coeloptera]

Yeah, I think we're getting back to the idea that general manufacturing capacity has switched over to the military choices so that the available raw materials just aren't going into the civilian and LE markets as much.

But the thought of LEOs with Garands and SKSs really amuses me for some reason.

It is pretty dumb about the AK-47. Most popular firearm on the planet and in this country we have an "image problem" with them. How nonsensical.

- Coeloptera

[Calvin]

It's only amusing until you need it, I guess.
As far as the choice of what to carry, some departments are at least letting officers supply their own rifle(s) as long as they meet the state's qual criteria. Carrying an Garand may not look professional, but who really cares? If it keeps you from pushing daisies, it's the best gun in the world!
Kale, almost all departments that issue patrol carbines/rifles stick with the .223 for obvious reasons. I'm not aware of any that go outside the "norm" and make a .308 or .338 Lapua Magnum a standard choice for patrol weapons.
The AR is as associated with LE as it is the military anymore. Tactical classes for the AR are usually taught by former troops who are familiar with the system, so tactics in its use and deployment are similar. Training is easier and you can get surplus parts cheap. Plus, the gov't will let PD's "buy" M16's (NOT M4's) through a grant at a price most police budgets could afford. They're old M16A1's and are usually Colt manufactured. They are refurbed and have the old A1 sights and triangular handguards. The ones I've seen/shot do just fine.

[troy2000]

Thanks for the background, Calvin. Always nice to hear from someone who has some personal or professional knowledge on a subject.

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Kale, almost all departments that issue patrol carbines/rifles stick with the .223 for obvious reasons. I'm not aware of any that go outside the "norm" and make a .308 or .338 Lapua Magnum a standard choice for patrol weapons.

Well in the case of .338 I can understand that for practical and budgetary reasons, but I'm surprised about the lack of .308 -isn't it generally a common round?

Plus, the gov't will let PD's "buy" M16's (NOT M4's) through a grant at a price most police budgets could afford. They're old M16A1's and are usually Colt manufactured. They are refurbed and have the old A1 sights and triangular handguards. The ones I've seen/shot do just fine.

So you're telling me that the cops have fully automatic M16s (albeit old ones) while the actual troops are limited to the 3-round burst (A2?) models? That's just messed...

[Bravo]

I'd rather have the 3-round burst than the full auto..I would think that when under pressure, you could perform better and conserve ammo more. I have a feeling that the M16's are cheaper, and that's whey the LEO's are getting those instead of the M4's.

[Coeloptera]

Interesting, Kale. I didn't know about the 6.8 Remington cartridge. More "oomph" than the 5.56 hm? I must say, that M468 with the 12" barrel looks like it'd be a very comfortable shoot.

I agree that there's no reason for LE not to jump ahead...if they had the funds...

- Coeloptera

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Coeloptera

Interesting, Kale. I didn't know about the 6.8 Remington cartridge. More "oomph" than the 5.56 hm? I must say, that M468 with the 12" barrel looks like it'd be a very comfortable shoot.
I agree that there's no reason for LE not to jump ahead...if they had the funds...
- Coeloptera

There are actually two competing rounds. 6.8 SPC, and 6.5 'Grendel', which is slightly shorter. Basically they pack more reliable hitting power into an only slightly larger package.

On a related note there's that Russian 9x39 ammo, basically 7.62x39 used in the old AK, but necked out to accept a much larger 9mm bullet. They chopped the powder load down so the bullet was subsonic, which made it possible to silence. The burning profile of the reduced powder charge also has the benefit of performing well in short barrels. In addition to silenced guns about the same size as conventional AR's, there are sub-machinegun-sized guns (9A-91, OC-14 etc) being used by Russian security forces that have AR performance at typical urban ranges. Apparently the big bullet is a more effective CQ round than 5.56 or 5.45 fired from a carbine.