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10-27-2007, 01:19 PM
| #21 |
| Resident Armed Liberal   |
I think you guys are tilting at windmills. I read the bill and saw nothing that prevents free speech, unless by "free speech" you mean "the right to organize, plan and attempt to carry out violence against the U.S. government or its citizens." Thee's also nothing sinister about the way it was passed; the House routinely cuts debate short to save time. And judging by the margin of aye votes, I'd say it wasn't done to squelch the opposition...there wasn't any to silence. The writer that Pred references in his post is more than a little over the top: "it is clear that all 404 representatives who voted in favor of this bill are traitors and should be removed from office immediately. The treason spans both political parties..." Since he then says that the Senate will also pass it and Bush will sign it, they must be traitors too, and should also be removed. So who are we supposed to put in charge? Him?
__________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France Last edited by troy2000; 10-27-2007 at 01:56 PM. |
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10-27-2007, 03:11 PM
| #23 | |
| Resident Armed Liberal |  Now FEMA is interviewing itself Quote:
FEMA blasted for 'news' conference - Los Angeles Times
__________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France Last edited by troy2000; 10-27-2007 at 03:20 PM. | |
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10-27-2007, 04:19 PM
| #24 |
| Banned |
Troy, I'm a little confused, maybe you can help me out here. I posted this same story on another gun forum. So far I've got 4442 views, and 180 replies. Not one person(besides saying there is no way this would stand up in court) has tried to play it off as you have. This bill is the groundwork to make ANYONE who speaks out against the government a domestic terrorist. There is no argument to this, it's fact. Anyone who disagrees with the government and wants change, it makes it ILLEGAL. Can I be more clear? Is there something I can do to spell it out any better? If so, please tell me. It doesn't matter to me if this bill passes and is made law anymore. It doesn't matter that they want to do a study to see whats the best course of action. What matters to me is that our government is committing treason. They no longer have our best interest in mind. Remember, this is the SAME government who put defenders of the Constitution, or those who make numerous references to it with terrorists and Klansmen. This bill makes me, and many members of this board a domestic terrorist if it were law right now. Maybe you would be more comfortable with these plastered everywhere:   Or maybe something more like this:  The simple fact that anyone, ANYONE, can read this bill and try to downplay it, makes my stomach turn. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. I'm sorry if the pictures offend anyone. But it's time this country wakes up from their safe little bubble world, and realizes that everything our fathers, brothers, uncles, and grandfathers fought and died for is nothing more then a myth. At some point in time each nations government realizes they are losing control of the people. They then try to scare them, show them fear and hope they scream SAVE US!!!! Only this time it's not working, so they start to do stuff like this. We are slowly trading our freedoms for just a little more security, hoping we are safe from the evil terrorist one more day. But at some point we must ask ourselves one question, who is more of a threat? Who are the true terrorists? To me, they are the ones who step on our Constitution, the ones who laugh at our Bill of Rights. Especially the ones who make "defenders of the Constitution" a domestic terrorist. Last edited by Pred; 10-27-2007 at 04:30 PM. |
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10-27-2007, 07:34 PM
| #25 |
| Resident Armed Liberal |
[quote=Pred;355322]Troy, I'm a little confused, maybe you can help me out here. I posted this same story on another gun forum. So far I've got 4442 views, and 180 replies. Not one person(besides saying there is no way this would stand up in court) has tried to play it off as you have. This bill is the groundwork to make ANYONE who speaks out against the government a domestic terrorist. There is no argument to this, it's fact. Anyone who disagrees with the government and wants change, it makes it ILLEGAL. Can I be more clear? Is there something I can do to spell it out any better? If so, please tell me. It doesn't matter to me if this bill passes and is made law anymore. It doesn't matter that they want to do a study to see whats the best course of action. What matters to me is that our government is committing treason. They no longer have our best interest in mind. Remember, this is the SAME government who put defenders of the Constitution, or those who make numerous references to it with terrorists and Klansmen. This bill makes me, and many members of this board a domestic terrorist if it were law right now. QUOTE] You're more than just a little confused, Pred. You're like a kid seeing the Boogieman in his closet, and you need to slow down and think. Consider the faint possiblility that 404 House members elected by the American public have NOT suddenly turned into traitors... Let's get back to your original post, and you can explain to me what you're upset about, OK? (3) HOMEGROWN TERRORISM- The term `homegrown terrorism' means the use, planned use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual born, raised, or based and operating primarily within the United States... Pred, are you using, planning to use or threatening to use force or violence against the country or its citizens, or do you think others should be allowed to? What does that have to do with free speech? (2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence... Pred, are you adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence? If not, then wtf are you worried about? Those two quotes don't say a word about free speech, unless you think planning and carrying out violent attacks is somehow free speech. The quote about the Internet is a simple statement of fact. The question is, what are they planning to do about it? I agree that could get sticky. "There is no argument to this, it's fact. Anyone who disagrees with the government and wants change, it makes it ILLEGAL." Huh?!? No, Pred. It addresses people who want to violently attack the government, the country or its citizens: people like Timothy McVeigh. It doesn't say a single word about people complaining about the government or working toward peaceful change...and if you come back trying to defend Timothy McVeigh, you'll turn my stomach.
__________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France |
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10-27-2007, 08:02 PM
| #26 |
| Senior Member  |
I have not read the bill, nor do I plan to; but I have to ask this? WHY? Why to we need more laws to stop terrorism or homegrown terrorism etc.... Is it not already illegal to meet and organize terroristic plots against the government? The only reason I can see for these types of laws is to control the populace. Look at the Patriot Act. Why would a bill written to stop terrorism have anything to do with requiring people to have to sign for an over the counter drug because of its use in Meth? And how does the Department of Homeland Security explain that seniors buying drugs from Canada because they are cheaper equate to terrorism? This law is no different than "yet another new gun law designed to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and to keep law abiding citizens safe". If Hillary was president she wouldn't hesistate one minute to consider every gun owner in America who supported her opponent a homegrown radical terrorist. I have seen threads on this site that would definately qualify as such. We either have freedom of assembly and freedom of speech or we don't.
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10-27-2007, 08:33 PM
| #27 |
| Senior Member   Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa
Posts: 6,877
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Those who would trade their freedom for security/safety deserve neither,imo. 
__________________  USAF '62-'66  . |
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10-27-2007, 08:42 PM
| #28 | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
__________________ Spocrest Out!.......... | |
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10-27-2007, 09:48 PM
| #30 | |
| Resident Armed Liberal | Quote:
First of all, it takes a bit of chutzpah to refuse to read a bill, then condemn it anyway. I'll be keeping a close eye on this one. But I think it's aimed at situations like they had in London, where Mullahs were taking advantage of "free speech" to incite their followers to go blow up their friends and neighbors in the subway system. I don't like the Patriot Act. And the sort of arrogance the Republican leaders in Congress showed by forcing votes without even allowing the members time to read it is one of the reasons they lost their majorities. But I've never heard the government equate seniors buying drugs in Canada with terrorism. Can you give me some sources or references? And you might be getting a wee bit carried away when you claim that, "If Hillary was president she wouldn't hesistate one minute to consider every gun owner in America who supported her opponent a homegrown radical terrorist." It's (almost) enough to make me hope she does win, just to prove you wrong. Face it: the woman would have to go a long way toward heavy-handed government just to pull even with King George the Dubya... And Pred, I agree with you that revolutionaries tend to get labeled as terrorists. but that doesn't mean all terrorists are revolutionaries, or that all revolutionaries have a just cause. One reason the American Revolution was so much more successful than most is that it wasn't just the poor, disenfranchised, ignorant masses rising up and making a mess of things like they did in France and in Russia. Here, the Revolution was led and embraced by the middle and upper classes, instead of just the have-nots. And there was already a long history and tradition of reasonably democratic local rule to begin with, because we were so far from England. In other words, the American Revolutionaries weren't really radicals as a group. They were the local solid citizens; what we would call the Establishment. Fortunately for the future of the country though, there was also a sprinkling of very thoughtful and articulate radicals in their midst.
__________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France | |
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10-28-2007, 10:55 AM
| #31 | ||
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa
Posts: 6,877
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It is apparent to me that they consider us to be their enemy unless we are on their staff. Kind of like the kings of old that kept the inhabitants of their kingdoms slaveing ,paying taxes,and inarmed until a neighboring king posed a threat,THEN he would arm his peasents and use them to defend his property. Pretty sweet situation,if you are a despot and a low down sob. imo. 
__________________ USAF '62-'66 . Last edited by Rave; 10-28-2007 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost | ||
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10-28-2007, 05:58 PM
| #32 | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
I'll take Bush's sorry @$$ any day over Hillary. Here's your sources: Senate Passes Bill to Stop Seizure of Drugs from Canada Now OK to get prescription drugs from Canada, but is it really?
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10-28-2007, 06:36 PM
| #33 | |
| Resident Armed Liberal | Quote:
However, Sen. Judd Gregg (R-N.H.) said that the amendment would lead to "a massive hole in our capacity to secure our borders and protect ourselves." He added, "If I were a creative terrorist, I would say to myself, 'Hey, listen, all I've got to do is produce a can here that says 'Lipitor' on it, make it look like the original Lipitor bottle, which isn't too hard to do, fill it with anthrax'" (AP/San Francisco Chronicle, 7/11). Doh...you could do that with ANYTHING brought into the country. Why does he single out medications? Easy to guess who he's been getting campaign contributions from, isn't it? Anyway, in the rest of the two articles they used safety to refer to the drugs themselves, and to the drug industry's claims that the ban is to protect the poor little senior citizens from counterfeit and substandard drugs. The reason the Department of Homeland Security kept getting mentioned is because the Border Patrol and Customs have been folded into that lovely new department. And again, I'll have to see how this bill turns out. But in London, they had Mullahs preaching that it was their congregations' duty to kill and die for Allah, and what a wonderful thing blowing up infidels is. But they were staying this side of the line, by not specifically telling them who to kill, or when, where and how to do it. I think this bill is aimed at that sort of broad incitement to violence, which is legal here too at the moment. I agree it's iffy and worrisome whether they can target the behavior tightly enough in a bill to keep the law from being used as a political weapon by whoever's in charge. But you face the same problem with any law, including the ones already on the books.
__________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France | |
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10-29-2007, 01:20 AM
| #34 |
| Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1
| Look at this follow-up article about the bills creator.
Pred, you were right to be worried! These were the first articles published about this bill: House Passes Thought Crime Prevention Bill By: Rob Bishop "This bill is one of the most blatant attacks against the Constitution yet and actually defines thought crimes as homegrown terrorism." cRitterology: Declaration of War vs. The People " On October 23, 2007 the U.S. Government declared War on the American People.... it will no longer be safe to speak out against the Government. Any word spoken across telephone lines, or written and recorded on the Internet, could potentially be scrutinized by the Department of Homeland Security, and lead more innocent victims to secret prisons to be subjected to violent acts of torture. Look at this follow-up article about the bills creator, Jane Harman. Intel Strike » Thought Crime Bill: A Declaration Of War By: Rob Bishop "This horrific bill, which passed in the House on October 23rd, 2007 and is already in the Senate’s Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, is aimed directly at the exploding patriot movement. You see, in the America of 2007, revering the Constitution and advocating personal freedom is akin to sharing madira with Osama bin Laden. If you understand that the right, NOT privilege, to own and bear arms is absolutely vital to a people’s defense… then you are a suspected domestic terrorist to our Con-gress and the Federalized police. Understand that this bill, which will almost certainly be pushed through Senate without debate as it was in the House and President Bush gleefully signs it into law, is the first leap towards shutting down alternative news sites… silencing patriot radio networks… raiding the homes of activists… and other Stalin-esque atrocities best left up to the imagination. Unlike the Murrah Building bombing in 1995, the next provocateured event by a “right wing super patriot” as U.S. Marshall manuals label Constitutionalists, will result in much more than stricter gun control laws. ... The elites and their underlings realize that the small but dedicated patriot movement is all that stands between the slaughter of the sheep known as the global population. If empowered, the modern patriots could spread their message and utilize our great numbers advantage to reclaim our republic. ... Am I just a “paranoid conspiracy theorist” for stating that there is an ulterior motive for an AIPAC puppet who is married to a CFR member with ties to the military-industrial complex to write a bill which will - not could, but will - make those who will fight for their freedoms and sovereignty public enemy number one?" |
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10-29-2007, 05:08 PM
| #35 |
| Senior Member |
Troy; I did not mean to infer that they called the Seniors terrorists for ordering medicine from Canada, but rather to question why a department which was created solely as a result of the attacks of 911 would target Senior citizens who were ordering discounted prescription drugs from Canada when there are much more pressing concerns with our Security. Furthermore since it is mentioned that it was the BORDER SECURITY that was involved in this situation one would have to ask themselves how they can consider this to be a security risk when one can just waltz in across the border and sign up freebies. When one can call up and say I know of 3 illegals working for XYZ and they say SO WHAT? Like you said: "guess who he's been getting campaign dollars from?" Ever see National Treasure; the part where Nic Cage tells pop that he found the Charlotte and dad asks about the treasure? He says no but there was a clue; and dad says that will lead to another clue and that to another clue and another......... This law will lead to another and that one to another and another.................
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10-29-2007, 05:22 PM
| #36 |
| Resident Armed Liberal |
The Department of Homeland Security may have been created after 9/11, but it cobbled together existing agencies, including Customs, whose legitimate job concerns the border and what comes across it. That includes smuggling and security, but also includes legitimate business imports and what people personally bring or send across. So it's the same people doing the job as it was before, for the same reasons. I agree with you on the prescription drug mess, though. It's a classic example of the government ridiculously misplacing its priorities and resources. But when it comes to this bill, I don't understand Pred's panic. All it does is establish a Commission and a study group to look at the problem of domestic terrorism. I'd say that's an intelligent thing to do, myself. They may not come up with any useful suggestions, but ignoring the problem is guaranteed not to work. And the bill doesn't outlaw anything at all, much less free speech at Gun and Game.
__________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France Last edited by troy2000; 10-29-2007 at 05:47 PM. |
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10-29-2007, 07:47 PM
| #37 | |
| Senior Member | Quote:
The FBI already watches hate groups, extremist groups and those of us of the "Freedom Loving" persuasion. Do we really need another law to establish another group to do the same job someone already is doing? ......and that will lead to another clue and that one to another and another................ OK scrap that I just skimmed it Troy. Thanks for making me waste 10 minutes of my time. Ok, nothing too bad in it. It doesn't do anything that they can't or aren't already doing right now. I like #8. [quote:] `(8) Any measure taken to prevent violent radicalization, homegrown terrorism, and ideologically based violence and homegrown terrorism in the United States should not violate the constitutional rights, civil rights, or civil liberties of United States citizens or lawful permanent residents. [/quote] Makes me feel safe at night. Still think its a bunch of hogwash and duplicity, but hey who knows.
__________________ Spocrest Out!.......... Last edited by SPOCAHP ANAR; 10-29-2007 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost | |
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10-30-2007, 08:32 AM
| #38 | ||
| Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa
Posts: 6,877
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__________________ USAF '62-'66 . Last edited by Rave; 10-30-2007 at 08:33 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost | ||
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11-01-2007, 05:17 PM
| #39 |
| Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007
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This Bill HR 1955 is a very serious threat to freedom and liberty of all Americans. If this Bill passes in the Senate without so much as a whimper from the American people then the masters of our puppet government will be able to do whatever they want because we will have lost the right speak out against the government. Do you not take this as serious? Actually it doesn't supprise me in the least that so few are up in arms over this. If we, the American people had even a spark of courage and Patriotic spirit Dr. Ron Paul would have tens of millions of flag waving Americans at his side. If we vote for anyone else you can expect these kinds of sneaky attacks on you constitutionas rights. Take a look at what has already been taken away in the last few years. Can't you see that they are stripping away our rights like peeling an onion. One layer at a time so you don't notice as much until you have no onion left! Wake UP! And do something about this. WE HAVE TO SAVE OUR NATION! Steve |
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11-03-2007, 02:49 AM
| #40 | |
| Resident Armed Liberal | Quote:
What? We're supposed to run around screaming with our hair on fire because, "OH--MY--GOD!!! They're creating an ACADEMIC STUDY GROUP!!!"? Get a grip, son. I'm willing to bet money that neither you nor Pred have actually read the bill. Spend five or ten minutes doing so, instead of just reading the nonsense put out by professional agitators and fear mongers.
__________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France | |
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