But why do they need a bill to set up a study? Is our government that inept that they can't look into terrorst activities unless they have a bill signed by the president saying they can.
This is the job of the Director of the FBI and CIA and of course HOMELAND SECURITY. If there truly is a need or desire to do this then they have the authority to look into these things and present their findings to the president and then to proceeed with the course of action the BOSS wants.
You are a hard man to figure Troy; you call Bush coersive and a blatant civil rights violator and and then you nonchalantly turn your head when something like this comes along.
SA, they haven't done anything. Tell me who they've coerced? Give me the name of any individual or group whose civil rights they've violated by funding this study?
In case you haven't figured it out, it's a good thing when Congress actually takes time to study something and understand what's going on, instead of just pulling laws out of their ass with no clue as to whether they're helping or hurting the situation. Don't you wish they'd done that with the "assault weapons" ban?
And in spite of your wishful thinking, the president is not "the BOSS." He doesn't write the laws. The legislative branch does that, and it's high time they stopped taking their marching orders from the Head Idiot in the White House and started thinking for themselves. They weren't elected just to be his flunkies.
Nor is the executive branch in general, and the FBI and CIA in particular, there to act as a fact-finding agency for Congress. And I wouldn't trust them if they were.
Are you sure you know how this government is supposed to work? The legislative branch writes the laws; the judicial branch interprets them; and the executive branch enforces them. No way, no how is it set up so that the government simply proceeds with the course of action "the BOSS" wants. Depending on the trappings, that would make our government either a monarchy or a dictatorship, instead of the representative democracy set up by our Constitution.
"`SEC. 899D. CENTER OF EXCELLENCE FOR THE STUDY OF VIOLENT RADICALIZATION AND HOMEGROWN TERRORISM IN THE UNITED STATES.
`(a) Establishment- The Secretary of Homeland Security shall establish or designate a university-based Center of Excellence for the Study of Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism in the United States (hereinafter referred to as `Center') following the merit-review processes and procedures and other limitations that have been previously established for selecting and supporting University Programs Centers of Excellence. The Center shall assist Federal, State, local and tribal homeland security officials through training, education, and research in preventing violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism in the United States. In carrying out this section, the Secretary may choose to either create a new Center designed exclusively for the purpose stated herein or identify and expand an existing Department of Homeland Security Center of Excellence so that a working group is exclusively designated within the existing Center of Excellence to achieve the purpose set forth in subsection (b).
`(b) Purpose- It shall be the purpose of the Center to study the social, criminal, political, psychological, and economic roots of violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism in the United States and methods that can be utilized by Federal, State, local, and tribal homeland security officials to mitigate violent radicalization and homegrown terrorism."
I must say I'm on Pred's side of this argument. This thing is down right scary. Go out and buy 1984 by George Orwell. That center mentioned above seems to be almost a duplicate of the one mentioned in the book. If you read the book it almost sounds like thats the path that bill is going to take us.
Last edited by Walther Gx-1; 12-02-2007 at 02:29 PM.
Reason: Spelling
DISSENT IN AMERICA TO BE RELABELED 'HOMEGROWN TERRORISM' On October 23, 2007, the House of Representatives passed what may be the most dangerous bill ever to come down the pike. This bill, like many of its predecessors on our steady march toward totalitarianism, sailed under the radar. There was virtually no publicity or fanfare. Now, the bill has gone to the Senate, and is in committee. The bill is called the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 (H.R. 1955/S. 1959). The language in this bill is so maddeningly vague it could mean anything........ Steven Yates -- Dissent in America to be Relabeled 'Homegrown Terrorism', Part 1
by Steven Yates
There are others who see and understand your issues with this...
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FEMA says the founding fathers were terrorists.
I am not sure how to post the vid on here.
Last edited by stikbutter; 12-02-2007 at 05:59 PM.
Reason: video
SA, they haven't done anything. Tell me who they've coerced? Give me the name of any individual or group whose civil rights they've violated by funding this study?
There you go again Troy; putting words in people's mouths that they haven't said. I never said they have coerced anyone with this or any law for that matter. I remember reading some of your posts where you said something about how Bush and his cronies had gone farther to trample the Bill of Rights than Hillary could ever dream of. Again those are YOUR words.
And what's this attack about "are you sure you even know how this government works?" That was a low for you; honestly I really expect better from you than that. It's embarrassing and dissapointing.
Reread what I said and think about it. Bush is the boss. The head of the CIA and FBI as well as Homeland Security report to him. They will follow or implement any course of action he deems necessary. The checks and balances is there but they don't get to sit in on the President's briefings with those agencies. Any questionable practices by those agencies and its the job of the congress and the courts to take action; and would the courts take any action on their own? I can't recall the supreme court ever taking action unilaterally without a suit ever being brought by a citizen.
__________________ Never explain with conspiracy what can easily be explained with incompetance!
There you go again Troy; putting words in people's mouths that they haven't said. I never said they have coerced anyone with this or any law for that matter. I remember reading some of your posts where you said something about how Bush and his cronies had gone farther to trample the Bill of Rights than Hillary could ever dream of. Again those are YOUR words.
And what's this attack about "are you sure you even know how this government works?" That was a low for you; honestly I really expect better from you than that. It's embarrassing and dissapointing.
Reread what I said and think about it. Bush is the boss. The head of the CIA and FBI as well as Homeland Security report to him. They will follow or implement any course of action he deems necessary. The checks and balances is there but they don't get to sit in on the President's briefings with those agencies. Any questionable practices by those agencies and its the job of the congress and the courts to take action; and would the courts take any action on their own? I can't recall the supreme court ever taking action unilaterally without a suit ever being brought by a citizen.
I repeat: Bush is not the Boss when it comes to writing laws; he's the one who carries them out. What does the CIA, FBI and Homeland Security reporting to Bush have to do with Congress writing laws concerning the security and defense of the country? The way you're laying it out, Bush is the Decider and we don't even need the Legislative branch.
I'm sorry, but I was dead serious: do you honestly understand how this government is supposed to work? What do you think is the intended function of Congress?
"...why do they need a bill to set up a study?" Because that's how they authorize the spending for the study, SA."
This whole to-do is the result of professional agitators who make their living running around screaming, "the sky is falling! The sky is falling! Wolf, Wolf! The dam's about to break! Snakes in the weeds, and fire in the theatre!" When they can't find real issues to scare us with they scream about bogus ones. You can tune in next month, and they'll be hysterical about a whole new threat to our freedom and the survival of our country and way of life.
They're doing us no favors, because it makes it easier to overlook the genuine threats in the midst of all the hubbub.
Troy 2000 Shut your **** mouth for one minute and go back and read what I said. I NEVER said it was the job of the FBI or the CIA or the Dept of Homeland Security or the President for that matter to write laws. I did say it WAS the job of the CIA, the FBI, and the Dept. of Homeland Security to investigate these matters, present their findings to the President and proceed from there how they want to handle them. Furthermore, congress regularly meets with the department heads of the FBI, the CIA, and the Dept. of Homeland Security, as well as the President, to discuss these matters.
I really don't care if congress wants to study homegrown terrorism. I DO care that congress wants to spend millions on a study for something the FBI the CIA and the Dept. of Homeland Security has been doing for years, and all they have to do is get off their fat @$$es and walk down the hall and ask for a copy of the report. If you think they need to study more then that is a topic of disagreement between us for you to base your argument on. Questioning whether I passed 9th grade civics does nothing to further the debate and belittles your point.
You should be more concerned about your understanding of the English Language than my understanding of the function of government. This is twice now that I have had to explain this to you and you still do not get it. Do I really need to draw you a picture? You must be more concerned with showboating your ego than the actual point of the conversation. Again, for an established member of this forum this is embarrassing and disappointing. You usually have a pretty good sound argument for any topic and it is usually fun to discuss these things with you; however it must be pick on spocahp day. What gives man?
__________________ Never explain with conspiracy what can easily be explained with incompetance!
..... Well, with our government now coming out and saying Iran halted their nuclear program back in 2003, I really do believe Lewis Black was and is right. The CIA is truly filled with frustrated weathermen. Sorry, off topic I know.... continue....
Troy 2000 Shut your **** mouth for one minute and go back and read what I said. I NEVER said it was the job of the FBI or the CIA or the Dept of Homeland Security or the President for that matter to write laws. I did say it WAS the job of the CIA, the FBI, and the Dept. of Homeland Security to investigate these matters, present their findings to the President and proceed from there how they want to handle them. Furthermore, congress regularly meets with the department heads of the FBI, the CIA, and the Dept. of Homeland Security, as well as the President, to discuss these matters.
I really don't care if congress wants to study homegrown terrorism. I DO care that congress wants to spend millions on a study for something the FBI the CIA and the Dept. of Homeland Security has been doing for years, and all they have to do is get off their fat @$ and walk down the hall and ask for a copy of the report. If you think they need to study more then that is a topic of disagreement between us for you to base your argument on. Questioning whether I passed 9th grade civics does nothing to further the debate and belittles your point.
You should be more concerned about your understanding of the English Language than my understanding of the function of government. This is twice now that I have had to explain this to you and you still do not get it. Do I really need to draw you a picture? You must be more concerned with showboating your ego than the actual point of the conversation. Again, for an established member of this forum this is embarrassing and disappointing. You usually have a pretty good sound argument for any topic and it is usually fun to discuss these things with you; however it must be pick on spocahp day. What gives man?
I think my understanding of the English language is probably at least equal to yours, SA. I Don't have time tonight, but I'll go through your posts point by point, and explain exactly where and how I think you're misdirecting and fuzzing up the discussion. OK?
For now, let's just say you keep inserting the Executive Branch into the discussion, as though it makes everything Congress does irrelevant and unnecessary
I do agree that walking down the hall (or down the road) and asking them what they have on the subject would be a good start. But I doubt they'd get much cooperation from an administration that seems to value political leverage, turf and secrecy over common sense.
Location: West, Central Florida, Third World America
Posts: 6,342
Troy, you spend too much time trying to argue aginst Pred's point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
I think you guys are tilting at windmills. I read the bill and saw nothing that prevents free speech, unless by "free speech" you mean "the right to organize, plan and attempt to carry out violence against the U.S. government or its citizens."
Thee's also nothing sinister about the way it was passed; the House routinely cuts debate short to save time. And judging by the margin of aye votes, I'd say it wasn't done to squelch the opposition...there wasn't any to silence.
The writer that Pred references in his post is more than a little over the top: "it is clear that all 404 representatives who voted in favor of this bill are traitors and should be removed from office immediately. The treason spans both political parties..." Since he then says that the Senate will also pass it and Bush will sign it, they must be traitors too, and should also be removed. So who are we supposed to put in charge? Him?
So much so, you fail to see, what I believe Pred is trying to point out. He assumes you have the ability to see the next frame of the movie, though it's plainly clear you don't!! Pred is trying to point out the potential for abuse. Abuse the government is most likely to use at the very first opportunity it gets. Just as it has done with so many other laws. What is it gonna take for you, and folks like you, to finally realize what is going on? Is it actually gonna take the evil ones, in the process of fitting you for your chains, to wake you up to what is going on? People who think like Pred, and myself, are the modern day patriots! We are pointing out the places of potential abuse. Why do you refuse to even look? You need not agree, just look, remember, and, draw your own conclusion!!!!! Just look how they have abused the patriot act. Wanna bet we don't even know the half of what abuses they have committed against Americans.
__________________
"They cannot be trusted.....The Romulans (our politicos) are without honor." Worf
So much so, you fail to see, what I believe Pred is trying to point out. He assumes you have the ability to see the next frame of the movie, though it's plainly clear you don't!! Pred is trying to point out the potential for abuse. Abuse the government is most likely to use at the very first opportunity it gets. Just as it has done with so many other laws. What is it gonna take for you, and folks like you, to finally realize what is going on? Is it actually gonna take the evil ones, in the process of fitting you for your chains, to wake you up to what is going on? People who think like Pred, and myself, are the modern day patriots! We are pointing out the places of potential abuse. Why do you refuse to even look? You need not agree, just look, remember, and, draw your own conclusion!!!!! Just look how they have abused the patriot act. Wanna bet we don't even know the half of what abuses they have committed against Americans.
Rufus, every law ever passed has the potential for abuse. That doesn't make the abuse inevitable or even likely, and it doesn't mean we give up on the rule of law.
I say, let them do their study. They might even learn something. As I mentioned earlier, don't you wish they'd actually studied up a little before they considered the "Assault Weapons" ban? Don't you wish they'd done a little studying before they passed the Patriot Act without even reading it?
Charging around hysterically claiming that funding a study of homegrown terrorism makes **** near every single member of the House of Representatives a traitor to the country is beyond ridiculous; it's asinine.
Homegrown terrorists are a potential problem. We shouldn't ignore them, and I'm not just talking about Muslims, either. Have you forgotten Timothy McVeigh? There are people out there who believe he was a hero and a martry, instead of a murdering scumbag who blew up children along with their mothers and fathers.
Troy, you are half right. Not every law that has passed has been abused, although they all have the potential. However, not all laws that are passed would give the government the ability to label any American citizen a domestic terrorist and lock them away for as long as they wish. Not all laws would all but shut THIS website down for spreading anti-government propaganda. And I'm not talking about threads like this, I'm talking pro second amendment folks, all of us. This may only be a study, but they want to take advice from the British, Australia. Do you really want to live in that world? History is nothing more then an hourglass. When the sand runs out, it's simply flipped over and it starts all over again. We are that great empire that the Romans were, it's only a matter of time before our society, our structure collapses. Now, how will we get to that point, I don't know. But having a government who thinks the way our government does is not a good thing. When those in power put your safety above your freedoms(as ours have) no good can come from it. I'm not trying to force you to agree with me, but simply to show you what COULD happen, so at least you have that thought, that idea in the back of your mind. If you refuse to see it, to accept it, or to even care, thats entirely up to you. My job, my work is done, I feel I've informed at least one person, thats all I ever intended to do.
but I'll go through your posts point by point, and explain exactly where and how I think you're misdirecting and fuzzing up the discussion.
I am not fuzzing up anything, though intentionally or not you seem to be misrepresenting what I am saying. I am simply stating that congress does not need to spend millions on a study for homegrown terrorism when they (our government) has been doing this for years. Homegrown terrorism isn't new by no means to our country. They have been investigating the klan, communists, skinheads, white supremacists, black panthers, freemen, right wing christians, leftist environmentalists and others for years; and they are doing a GREAT JOB.
Every post of mine has had this same premise: The government has been and is currently studying these concerns laid out in this bill and the policies are working. If congress wishes to study this in any more detail then they should study the current reports, policies and findings from the appropriate agencies involved.
Coupled with the fact that there haven't been any more Tim McVeighs and Lee Malvo's than there has been in the last 16 yrs I would say that our present policies are working just fine.
If you go back and reread any of my posts and conclude any different meaning than what I have just said, then you have failed to understand what I have said or I have failed in trying to relay it to you. I cannot say it any clearer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
For now, let's just say you keep inserting the Executive Branch into the discussion, as though it makes everything Congress does irrelevant and unnecessary.
Never said that, nor is it implied; you assumed it. Even after I explained that was not what I was saying you still carry on with it.
The executive branch controls these agencies that I have been referring to; that is the only context in which they have been mentioned. See above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
But I doubt they'd get much cooperation from an administration that seems to value political leverage, turf and secrecy over common sense.
It surprises me that you will use this at all. FYI: Bush doesn't have Karl Rove sitting at the checkout desk at the Government archives with a shredder. Last time I checked it was Clinton's administration that was stealing and shredding documents from the archives. The reports are there. They just need to make an effort to get them. If they don't get them then they should subpeona them as they have before for other less trivial things. If Bush refuses the subpeona then the courts can deal with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by troy2000
I say, let them do their study. They might even learn something. As I mentioned earlier, don't you wish they'd actually studied up a little before they considered the "Assault Weapons" ban? Don't you wish they'd done a little studying before they passed the Patriot Act without even reading it.
You may be right, only time will tell. There WAS a need for a study when they enacted the Patriot ACT as we had just had a major lapse in security on 911. Doing a study to fix the problems was warranted but not done. If we were having Oklahoma bombings every other week I would say do a study and fix the problem, but we aren't.
Do you believe that we really do need this study?
__________________ Never explain with conspiracy what can easily be explained with incompetance!
Last edited by SPOCAHP ANAR; 12-04-2007 at 04:57 PM.
..... Well, with our government now coming out and saying Iran halted their nuclear program back in 2003, I really do believe Lewis Black was and is right. The CIA is truly filled with frustrated weathermen. Sorry, off topic I know.... continue....
Troy, you spend too much time trying to argue aginst Pred's point. 
So much so, you fail to see, what I believe Pred is trying to point out. He assumes you have the ability to see the next frame of the movie, though it's plainly clear you don't!! Pred is trying to point out the potential for abuse. Abuse the government is most likely to use at the very first opportunity it gets. Just as it has done with so many other laws. What is it gonna take for you, and folks like you, to finally realize what is going on? Is it actually gonna take the evil ones, in the process of fitting you for your chains, to wake you up to what is going on?
People who think like Pred, and myself, are the modern day patriots! We are pointing out the places of potential abuse. Why do you refuse to even look? You need not agree, just look, remember, and, draw your own conclusion!!!!! Just look how they have abused the patriot act. Wanna bet we don't even know the half of what abuses they have committed against Americans.
