Alcahol,global warming.

samuel · 12-03-2007, 08:58 AM

A reporter from New York Times that was on C,SPAN just verified that when you figure in the fuel used to plant and harvest corn and process it into alcohol it takes 1.5 gallon if fossil fuel to produce 1gal. of alcohol.I know this is a government project and money is no object. What I was wondering was if you people from Arkansas could tell me how the moonshiners can possibly make a living with the fuel prices so high.Can they get a tax break?I'm worried about them. sam.

troy2000 · 12-04-2007, 12:12 AM

Don't worry about them, sam. The moonshiners will be fine; they have low overhead.

Those numbers that get thrown around claiming it takes more than a gallon of fossil fuel to create a gallon of ethanol are about as reliable as the study about bumblebees when we were kids; the one that "scientifically proved" its aerodynamically impossible for them to fly.

toolman · 12-04-2007, 01:54 AM

Troy, you might want to look at some of the energy production sites for actual breakdowns on fuel pricing. I'm not an expert, but there are a lot of very smart guys who can verify what Sam is talking about. FWIW, the town that I used to live in now has a plant that turns mesquite wood into ethanol. Who knows how it's going to pan out, but it's only running a few days a week right now. This is one of the first sites I found relating to fuel production costs: Energy Plug: Biodiesel Performance, Costs, and Use

troy2000 · 12-04-2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toolman

Troy, you might want to look at some of the energy production sites for actual breakdowns on fuel pricing. I'm not an expert, but there are a lot of very smart guys who can verify what Sam is talking about. FWIW, the town that I used to live in now has a plant that turns mesquite wood into ethanol. Who knows how it's going to pan out, but it's only running a few days a week right now. This is one of the first sites I found relating to fuel production costs: Energy Plug: Biodiesel Performance, Costs, and Use

It took the Brazilians about ten years to eliminate their dependence on foreign oil by gearing up to produce ethanol from sugar cane, toolman. If they used a gallon and a half of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol, they'd be importing even more oil now instead of little or none.

That's a real-world result, not a study. I suspect people in the oil industry are behind a lot of the studies, articles and opinion pieces out there saying it can't be done.

Farmer · 12-04-2007, 03:59 AM

Thats why australia is making ethanol from sugar cane not maise.

Sugar cane is on .75ltr

samuel · 12-04-2007, 05:25 AM

As usual I dont know which side is telling the truth and doubt both sides because the one clicking the keys isnt a scientist and is highly opinionated one way or the other the same as all of the news is.I was just worried about the moonshiners which are few in # and arent a big enough voting block to get any political support like wetbacks,blacks,homos,homeless,over investors and such.If you dont have a substancial voting block to intrest politicians you arent going to get sh** from the government no matter how desperate you get.We may have to get a donation out there like Clintons deal on lawyers fees.I believe the moonshiners are worth saving,unlike a lot of groups the politicians are saving now.Also Troy I dont believe you should be belittling the moonshiner who puts a product on the market and serves the public faithfuly.They deserve to live a lifestyle equal to the others that live just outside society that the government does so much for. sam.

Chris · 12-04-2007, 05:38 AM

Sam, while I feel and understand your pain...please do not be derogatory with the special user groups you mentioned...we have a few on the site and the site is opened to the world

samuel · 12-04-2007, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

Sam, while I feel and understand your pain...please do not be derogatory with the special user groups you mentioned...we have a few on the site and the site is opened to the world

So be it.It,s your forum. sam.

Big Dog · 12-04-2007, 05:51 AM

Brazil uses sugar crops to make ethanol, rather than corn - much more efficient. Another problem with using corn is that it takes away from our stocks of food - for man and beast! We may be running our cars, but still be starving . . .

PrivateSnuffy · 12-04-2007, 08:58 AM

now if they made a car that was powered on a much more abundant source.....farts. that'd be the day

samuel · 12-04-2007, 09:58 AM

To all you minoritys out there that I am accused of being "derogatory" to:It was not my intention to be derogatory to any minority.I intended to be derogatory to the politicians that enacted the social programs that entrapped you into them and made you dependent on government for survival so you would vote for them.Being on limited income I am in the same fix.I deeply regret having offended anyone. sam.

Rufus Rhastus J · 12-04-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troy2000

It took the Brazilians about ten years to eliminate their dependence on foreign oil by gearing up to produce ethanol from sugar cane, toolman. If they used a gallon and a half of fossil fuel to produce a gallon of ethanol, they'd be importing even more oil now instead of little or none.
That's a real-world result, not a study. I suspect people in the oil industry are behind a lot of the studies, articles and opinion pieces out there saying it can't be done.

Are you suggestiing a conspiracy? The oil companies are being less than honest? Stealing from us poor folks? Could be....

I'm pleased you are waking up!

troy2000 · 12-04-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuel

Troy I dont believe you should be belittling the moonshiner who puts a product on the market and serves the public faithfuly.They deserve to live a lifestyle equal to the others that live just outside society that the government does so much for. sam.

Sam, I wouldn't dream of belittling someone who provides such a vital service. I was merely pointing out that the efficiency of their operations allows them to thrive in the open market place; that makes them the epitome of capitalism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Dog

Brazil uses sugar crops to make ethanol, rather than corn - much more efficient. Another problem with using corn is that it takes away from our stocks of food - for man and beast! We may be running our cars, but still be starving . . .

We won't starve, Big Dog. We can always just hop into our ethanol-powered cars and drive over to McGlopple's for a McGiggle Meal, can't we?

ArkansasHunter · 12-04-2007, 01:52 PM

Moon Shine or Corn Squeez'ins is fired by wood with some useing Propane.
Other fuel sources would cause it to cost about what store bought wiskey would cost if wood wasn't used. This would cause the shiners to go out of the bussiness if they had to use fuel sources other than wood to fire there stiles.

There is some experimenting going on to use chicken litter and house hold waste for
keeping the stiles running.
I'll let you know how we do...A.H

snuffysmith · 12-04-2007, 02:21 PM

One of the main reasons moonshiners could and do make a profit is the lack of taxes they would normally pay on each quart of shine. Take, for example, a qt. of commercial whiskey at oh, say $20.00 a moonshiner could sell the same qt. for maybe 10-12 dollars and still make a fair profit.
When I was in the service in the sixties, overseas a qt. of Jack Daniels black cost around $1.25- why? no taxes.
Gasoline is the same way, if I make a gallon of alky out of corn or sugar it may cost a lot for the first gal. I have to pay taxes on that one. The gal. I produce goes into my tractor, etc. (no taxes) my cost goes waaaay down. You will never get ahead doing business with the govnment. Trust me, they won't let you, they would go broke.

Snuffy

samuel · 12-04-2007, 04:14 PM

snuffysmith:If moonshiners are breaking the law and not paying taxes that is the very type of people the government loves to send money and aid to so maybe they can get signed up for assistance.I appoligise if that sounds "derogatory".No derogatory intended. sam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samuel

snuffysmith:If moonshiners are breaking the law and not paying taxes that is the very type of people the government loves to send money and aid to so maybe they can get signed up for assistance.I appoligise if that sounds "derogatory".No derogatory intended. sam.

I just found out moonshiners are capitolists and wont accept assistance from the government if offered.They will just start driving for NASCAR if times get rough and still get by altho it might be a drop in income.But as AH pointed out they use alternative fuel mostly anyway so they will just have to break the bucksaw out and leave the chainsaw set.Just so they can maintain the supply.I will quit worrying about them. sam.

nathangdad · 12-04-2007, 05:18 PM

The whole idea of moonshine is that you pay no taxes therefore do not need a tax break.
Where ethanol really kills America

Big Dog · 12-04-2007, 05:56 PM

Troy - I see now an ad for MacDees offering a new Burrito meal! Maybe they'll have ethanol-laced sweet tea to wash it down . . .

SKS NOOB · 12-04-2007, 06:31 PM

.... and after yer done eatin that mess, here comes the methane.

12-03-2007, 08:58 AM	#1
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,089	Alcahol,global warming. A reporter from New York Times that was on C,SPAN just verified that when you figure in the fuel used to plant and harvest corn and process it into alcohol it takes 1.5 gallon if fossil fuel to produce 1gal. of alcohol.I know this is a government project and money is no object. What I was wondering was if you people from Arkansas could tell me how the moonshiners can possibly make a living with the fuel prices so high.Can they get a tax break?I'm worried about them. sam.

12-04-2007, 12:12 AM	#2
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 9,937 Images: 9	Don't worry about them, sam. The moonshiners will be fine; they have low overhead. Those numbers that get thrown around claiming it takes more than a gallon of fossil fuel to create a gallon of ethanol are about as reliable as the study about bumblebees when we were kids; the one that "scientifically proved" its aerodynamically impossible for them to fly. __________________ I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting you really believe what you just said. WF Buckley, Jr

12-04-2007, 01:54 AM	#3
toolman Mr. Fixit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: abilene,tx Posts: 5,807 Blog Entries: 24	Troy, you might want to look at some of the energy production sites for actual breakdowns on fuel pricing. I'm not an expert, but there are a lot of very smart guys who can verify what Sam is talking about. FWIW, the town that I used to live in now has a plant that turns mesquite wood into ethanol. Who knows how it's going to pan out, but it's only running a few days a week right now. This is one of the first sites I found relating to fuel production costs: Energy Plug: Biodiesel Performance, Costs, and Use __________________ cosmoline is an aphrodisiac! Last edited by toolman; 12-04-2007 at 01:57 AM.

12-04-2007, 03:59 AM	#5
Farmer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Limbri NSW Au Posts: 316	Thats why australia is making ethanol from sugar cane not maise. Sugar cane is on .75ltr __________________ Cheers, Rob I'm into gun control - I always use both hands!!!!!!!

12-04-2007, 05:25 AM	#6
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,089	As usual I dont know which side is telling the truth and doubt both sides because the one clicking the keys isnt a scientist and is highly opinionated one way or the other the same as all of the news is.I was just worried about the moonshiners which are few in # and arent a big enough voting block to get any political support like wetbacks,blacks,homos,homeless,over investors and such.If you dont have a substancial voting block to intrest politicians you arent going to get sh** from the government no matter how desperate you get.We may have to get a donation out there like Clintons deal on lawyers fees.I believe the moonshiners are worth saving,unlike a lot of groups the politicians are saving now.Also Troy I dont believe you should be belittling the moonshiner who puts a product on the market and serves the public faithfuly.They deserve to live a lifestyle equal to the others that live just outside society that the government does so much for. sam. Last edited by samuel; 12-04-2007 at 05:39 AM.

12-04-2007, 05:38 AM	#7
Chris HMFIC Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,834,253 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 20	Sam, while I feel and understand your pain...please do not be derogatory with the special user groups you mentioned...we have a few on the site and the site is opened to the world __________________ Rules \| Contributing Members No one has the right to deny my personal safety Please be descriptive in your thread titles! NRA Life Member

12-04-2007, 05:51 AM	#9
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,361	Brazil uses sugar crops to make ethanol, rather than corn - much more efficient. Another problem with using corn is that it takes away from our stocks of food - for man and beast! We may be running our cars, but still be starving . . . __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

12-04-2007, 08:58 AM	#10
PrivateSnuffy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 169	now if they made a car that was powered on a much more abundant source.....farts. that'd be the day

12-04-2007, 09:58 AM	#11
samuel Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,089	To all you minoritys out there that I am accused of being "derogatory" to:It was not my intention to be derogatory to any minority.I intended to be derogatory to the politicians that enacted the social programs that entrapped you into them and made you dependent on government for survival so you would vote for them.Being on limited income I am in the same fix.I deeply regret having offended anyone. sam.

12-04-2007, 01:52 PM	#14
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,931	Moon Shine or Corn Squeez'ins is fired by wood with some useing Propane. Other fuel sources would cause it to cost about what store bought wiskey would cost if wood wasn't used. This would cause the shiners to go out of the bussiness if they had to use fuel sources other than wood to fire there stiles. There is some experimenting going on to use chicken litter and house hold waste for keeping the stiles running. I'll let you know how we do...A.H

12-04-2007, 02:21 PM	#15
snuffysmith Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: central Arkansas Posts: 577	One of the main reasons moonshiners could and do make a profit is the lack of taxes they would normally pay on each quart of shine. Take, for example, a qt. of commercial whiskey at oh, say $20.00 a moonshiner could sell the same qt. for maybe 10-12 dollars and still make a fair profit. When I was in the service in the sixties, overseas a qt. of Jack Daniels black cost around $1.25- why? no taxes. Gasoline is the same way, if I make a gallon of alky out of corn or sugar it may cost a lot for the first gal. I have to pay taxes on that one. The gal. I produce goes into my tractor, etc. (no taxes) my cost goes waaaay down. You will never get ahead doing business with the govnment. Trust me, they won't let you, they would go broke. Snuffy __________________ time & weather changes everything KTALGSTO

12-04-2007, 05:18 PM	#17
nathangdad Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,832	Ha-Ha The whole idea of moonshine is that you pay no taxes therefore do not need a tax break. Where ethanol really kills America

12-04-2007, 05:56 PM	#18
Big Dog Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tallahassee, Florida Posts: 10,361	Troy - I see now an ad for MacDees offering a new Burrito meal! Maybe they'll have ethanol-laced sweet tea to wash it down . . . __________________ Moderator of: AR15/M16, M14/M1A, New/Beginning Shooters and Militaria/Collectables.

12-04-2007, 06:31 PM	#19
SKS NOOB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Minnesotah Posts: 689	.... and after yer done eatin that mess, here comes the methane.