Now I'm just looking for opinions and wondering if we have any COs on the board. I sent this to my friend who is and I'm sure I'll get an answer from him soon.
Myself, I'm inclined to think they were in the right on this one save for one or two very minor points.
First off, the inmate did have the first number of shots totally coming because he did not comply. Hands out the passthrough, that was as clear as can be. I myself don't think the swearing was untoward at all. It merely imprinted a level of emotional intent on the order. Notice the officers didn't swear until after the inmate refused to comply. I think they asked him more than enough times before they shot him.
The chair shot is iffier. But as the analyst said, it's hard to tell if the inmate is trying to stand up or not. Notice that from point blank range, the pepperball round didn't seem to do any serious damage, though I'm sure it hurt like a SOB.
The only part I question, even a little, is the "pretty please" part. It is a bit unprofessional to try and provoke an inmate like that. I understand the officers were likely a little hacked off by the guy that that point in the proceedings, but still...part of the job.
One thing I found very interesting was the hold the officer up top had on the inmate's temporomandibular joint. I like that. Very precise, able to be increased or decreased in pressure or pain relatively easily and unlikely to do any permanent damage unless you were really trying to.
Anyone else find the guy's mother hysterical? Her little angel apparently had quite the record and she's out there putting up notices? I notice she didn't bother informing the public of the fact that he jammed his cell door (a big no-no) and made the officers come in and get him.
The man doing the end commentary summed it up pretty well. they did not cross the line but did get right on the edge. when i worked in the county jail before I went on patrol we always recorded our cell exstractions to. but we also made certain that only the MINIMUM amount of force was used. and you never curse at an inmate while it is not ileagel and deffnently not abusive exspecially compared to what an inmate langues ussally is it just looks bad. it is just alot easier to remember that what ever you do will be revied by every bleeding heart parent that believes there murdering rapist theiveing son didnot desirve to get shot with a pepper ball. even though thosands of tennager go play paintball all the time for FUN. some how it seems mean when it done to an inmate. face it inmates have it better than our troops over seas right now..
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If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?
I disagree with there was no crossing the line. At least one person did and, even myself as the conservative person, would smack him with disciplinary action.
Training is you never provoke an incident with a suspect or any other person, for that matter . For the staff member (presumably an Officer) to taunt him into saying another racial slur just to be able to justify use of force is a no-no. Very simple....very simple.
You are also trained you take whatever mouthing they give...that just goes with the job and turf. A racial slur....a finger in the air...them spitting on you...is NO GROUNDS for the use of excessive force. Like on the street...you have to neutralize the threat to protect the suspect, yourself, or others.
Once they are in physical control they should use only the force necessay to continue passive control.
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"It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me
My son was a dispatcher at our county jail and some times had to work in max.
When the prisoner disobeyed the order such as this guy did you can expect similar results.
Face it ! You do the crime don't expect your azz to be kissed when you go to jail.
Do what your told and you'll do well, other wise it's gonna be ruff !
No sympathy here...A.H
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Last edited by ArkansasHunter; 12-20-2007 at 10:49 AM.
When you are in jail you do give up some of your rights that you had on the street. one of them is the right to swear and I dont know about arizona but in NC if an inmate spits at or on an officer or throws projects any other body fluids it is a felony assault and can and most likely will be met with phisicail restrait to stop you from doing it again. example the spit hood on the guys head when his in the chair.
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If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?
I'm a little disappointed they didn't get to use the electrical capture shield on him. My friend says that's some of the most fun training he had.
I'll partially agree with Dale, as I said. I think it was unprofessional to try and provoke the inmate, especially when you know you're being recorded.
When you are in jail you do give up some of your rights that you had on the street. one of them is the right to swear and I dont know about arizona but in NC if an inmate spits at or on an officer or throws projects any other body fluids it is a felony assault and can and most likely will be met with phisicail restrait to stop you from doing it again. example the spit hood on the guys head when his in the chair.
Please thoroughly read posts before you put words in my mouth. I said excessive force.
Geez.
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"It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me
Due to safty concerns for the officer(s) it has to be excessive force you can't let the criminal get a upper hand.
If every one here that is a member had to work in a jail or prison you would all be guilty of some kind of abuse of a prisoner because you get tired of the bull chit these low life loosers deal out. Your human .
What would yall do if I spit in your face or through poop on you ? Smile and say shame on you that wasn't nice. LOL You would beat the crap out of me...A.H
The taunting is the only thing that went a little overboard here... a verbal reprimand will do. You can try to train to just react but emotions do overwhelm officers sometimes (and it's always what gets us in trouble especially when it's taped) But it happens to everyone at some point, and when it does you just hope you get control of yourself before you go too far.The rest of it is good stuff. I worked for about 2 years in a jail ( not a prison ) and it sucked, I have all the respect in the world for CO's. Day in and day out in that atmosphere grates on you.
I personally think he should've been Tasered to the point of turning into a jellyfish on the floor. Then he should've been beaten, stomped, pepper-sprayed, stripped naked, spray-painted hot pink and stood on the court house lawn for people to use as target practice. That's probably why I'm not in law-enforcement ...Yet!
I'm not, nor was I ever, opposed to introducing the idiot to some wall-to-wall therapy.
But, as vague as I have been, my concern is that if someone decides it's necessary and (in today's legal and public court) your department or agency policy and guidelines and training say that any deemed excessive force will result in lost job and, very possibly, defending yourself before a jury.
You never put yourself on the offense and I see a whole lot of offense in the video.
My thoughts about the video:
1. don't go near a video taped scene unless absolutely necessary.
2. if you decide to use taunting comments then followed by any force don't do it with witnesses around.
3. there is no suspect worth putting your career, life and/or livlihood on the line for. A situation might call for it but a suspect is not a reason.
4. remember, most all non-departmental personnel will be looking to crucify your butt since the person who has never been there obviously knows more about what to do than you do.
Unfortunately, time has changed to where the suspect or inmate has far more rights than the Officer will ever have.
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"It confuses me how some people can vigorously go against the 2nd. Amendment and still call themselves patriotic"-me
A jail is like Las Vegas...What happens there stays there. My son dealt with a lot of inmates that wanted to use the telephone or something to eat, they never understood that they were incarserarted because they committed a crime.
They would beat on steel doors or yell trying to get there ways.
Many times he had to confront the one(s) doing it and threaten bodily harm and some times that didn't work.
It was there routine to gang up on the inmate and take them down and put them in solitare to maintain order in the jail.
You gotta do what you gotta do and the cops and jailers do get hurt sometimes, the outside looking in will hollar abuse, descrimination, But the fact is there only trying to maintain order and disipline...A.H
