Six times the guns, less crime. Coincidence? ;)

Coeloptera · 01-08-2008, 04:44 AM

Michigan sees fewer gun deaths — with more permits

"
Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.

But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.

The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined."

I believe I speak for everyone here when I say, "Suck it, haters."

Once again, the obvious point that people who go through the effort and training to get a CCW aren't likely to be habitual lawbreakers seems to hold up.

But here's my favourite part of the article: "Shikha Hamilton of Grosse Pointe, president of the Michigan chapter of the anti-gun group Million Moms March, said she believes overall gun violence (including suicide and accidental shootings) is up in Michigan since 2001."

Not according to the statistics. Idiot.

- Coeloptera

(Will have pics and review of his new shotgun up later this week)

Seabeescotty · 01-08-2008, 10:15 AM

If they can't twist it to fit, they'll outright lie about it. I just wish they'd all had Dads like mine, who taught me not to lie about anything! Scotty

ArkansasHunter · 01-08-2008, 10:25 AM

My Dad was the same Seabeescotty and he told my brother and I to never steal.
He said if there was something we thought we had to steal to come to him and he would buy it for us.
We never did steal anything and we never did ask him to buy something that we thought we might end up stealing.
To this day I will not lie or steal....With that said I might tease or B.S for humour or a joke but thats it !!! A.H

genwinters · 01-08-2008, 10:25 AM

it is just ingrained in some people that guns are the worst thing in the world. If in the wrong hands yes they can cause destruction, but most LEGAL owners (as a general rule) dont commit gun violence. I live in michigan and it feels very safe, besides detroit haha

KGunner · 01-08-2008, 11:08 AM

What I can't stand is the people who for no logical reason hate guns. They hate being around them, seeing them, and knowing when people have them. If we didn't have our guns, its the governments guns that we would have to worry about.

What I can't stand is the people who for no logical reason hate guns. They hate being around them, seeing them, and knowing when people have them. If we didn't have our guns, its the governments guns that we would have to worry about.

Troy · 01-08-2008, 12:02 PM

WHAT? C'MON? YOUR KIDDING ME? you mean that the sheep get armed and suddenly the wolves turn into a bunch of puppies? sorry for the sarcasm, but why is it too small a part of the majority understand that giving the people the right to defend themselves with a power matching the criminals should be a protected right? that arming and educating the people is the SOLUTION. that criminals for the most part are cowards getting by on a false sence of how big their balls are given to them by the guns they use to attack unarmed people. when force is met by force they dig their holes a little deeper under that rock they live under. even when burdened with the proof that this approach works, the anti's still have their panties choked into such a bunch that they cant see the truth if it came up and bitch slapped them.

damage855 · 01-08-2008, 12:24 PM

Troy you said it all.......

Rave · 01-08-2008, 12:52 PM

Georgia started issueing ccws eleven years before Florida,thousands and thousands,and during those eleven years not a single ccw holder commited a crime with a gun.
The evening before it went in to effect here in Florida the talking heads were hysterically screaming about the streets running with blood,I even taped it for posterity.
Of course crime fell a bunch,it always does when a state becomes a shall issue.
Congratulations to all states that become shall issue,they are doing the right thing,especially with the gang problems growing like crazy.
Remember what happened in L.A.,the law ran and left the citizens to fend for themselves. Don't think it won't happen again,and maybe on a larger scale.

Coeloptera · 01-08-2008, 02:48 PM

This may make it tougher for other states to try and throw down more restrictive laws. If they can back it up with stats and a few more studies, it would be difficult to argue for further restrictions.

Insofar as I recall, Vermont has next-to-no firearms legislation at all and their crime rate is vanishingly small.

Hopefully the gun lobby will get on this and start working both sides of the political spectrum once primaries are done. If it is Obama, they need to start on him early and divert his priorities and demonstrate the potential safety of more training for citizens as well as the revenue.

- Coeloptera

BloodRedStratus · 01-09-2008, 07:34 AM

Way to go Michigan. I still won't got to Detroit. LOL

Jimbo Indy · 01-09-2008, 03:57 PM

I'm reading a couple of books by John Lott. He does a in depth statistical study on concealed gun permits and crime. VERY detailed, thousands of hours in data collection down to the county level. This guy lives in the world of statistics.
In brief, his findings are that everywhere concealed carry is legalized, violent crime goes down. If the state adopts a "shall issue" carry law the crime reduces more than if it is a "may issue" state. Both types of concealed carry states have far less crime than restrictive states without or very limited concealed carry.
Also, when concealed carry is legalized, crime tends to shift toward property crimes such as auto theft and larceny and away with violent crime such as murder, armed robbery and rape.
I highly recommend this book, "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. Sorry, can't remember the title of the sequel. That is big on his conclusions. The first book is all about the data and statistical methods.

Windwalker · 01-09-2008, 08:25 PM

All states that I know of that passed a CCW law have had a reduction in violent crime. It happened here in Oklahoma too.

Seabeescotty · 01-09-2008, 08:56 PM

We have the proof that the opposite is true right in D.C. Why can't the blind idiots see that? Isn't that where they work? Or do they pretend to do the work they were elected to do, like they pretend to be smarter than the rest of us? Scotty

01-08-2008, 04:44 AM	#1
Coeloptera Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,916	Six times the guns, less crime. Coincidence? ;) Michigan sees fewer gun deaths — with more permits " Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold. But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics. The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined." I believe I speak for everyone here when I say, "Suck it, haters." Once again, the obvious point that people who go through the effort and training to get a CCW aren't likely to be habitual lawbreakers seems to hold up. But here's my favourite part of the article: "Shikha Hamilton of Grosse Pointe, president of the Michigan chapter of the anti-gun group Million Moms March, said she believes overall gun violence (including suicide and accidental shootings) is up in Michigan since 2001." Not according to the statistics. Idiot. - Coeloptera (Will have pics and review of his new shotgun up later this week)

01-08-2008, 10:15 AM	#2
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 4,094 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	If they can't twist it to fit, they'll outright lie about it. I just wish they'd all had Dads like mine, who taught me not to lie about anything! Scotty __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

01-08-2008, 10:25 AM	#4
genwinters Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Plymouth, MI Posts: 309	it is just ingrained in some people that guns are the worst thing in the world. If in the wrong hands yes they can cause destruction, but most LEGAL owners (as a general rule) dont commit gun violence. I live in michigan and it feels very safe, besides detroit haha Last edited by genwinters; 01-08-2008 at 10:33 AM.

01-08-2008, 11:08 AM	#5
KGunner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 442	What I can't stand is the people who for no logical reason hate guns. They hate being around them, seeing them, and knowing when people have them. If we didn't have our guns, its the governments guns that we would have to worry about. What I can't stand is the people who for no logical reason hate guns. They hate being around them, seeing them, and knowing when people have them. If we didn't have our guns, its the governments guns that we would have to worry about. Last edited by KGunner; 01-08-2008 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

01-08-2008, 12:24 PM	#7
damage855 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina / Lake Norman Posts: 931 Blog Entries: 1	Troy you said it all....... __________________ If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?

01-08-2008, 10:25 AM	#3
ArkansasHunter Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: South Arkansas Posts: 10,727	My Dad was the same Seabeescotty and he told my brother and I to never steal. He said if there was something we thought we had to steal to come to him and he would buy it for us. We never did steal anything and we never did ask him to buy something that we thought we might end up stealing. To this day I will not lie or steal....With that said I might tease or B.S for humour or a joke but thats it !!! A.H

01-08-2008, 12:02 PM	#6
Troy Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Manitoba Canada Posts: 2,504 Images: 3	WHAT? C'MON? YOUR KIDDING ME? you mean that the sheep get armed and suddenly the wolves turn into a bunch of puppies? sorry for the sarcasm, but why is it too small a part of the majority understand that giving the people the right to defend themselves with a power matching the criminals should be a protected right? that arming and educating the people is the SOLUTION. that criminals for the most part are cowards getting by on a false sence of how big their balls are given to them by the guns they use to attack unarmed people. when force is met by force they dig their holes a little deeper under that rock they live under. even when burdened with the proof that this approach works, the anti's still have their panties choked into such a bunch that they cant see the truth if it came up and bitch slapped them.

01-08-2008, 12:52 PM	#8
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 6,897	Georgia started issueing ccws eleven years before Florida,thousands and thousands,and during those eleven years not a single ccw holder commited a crime with a gun. The evening before it went in to effect here in Florida the talking heads were hysterically screaming about the streets running with blood,I even taped it for posterity. Of course crime fell a bunch,it always does when a state becomes a shall issue. Congratulations to all states that become shall issue,they are doing the right thing,especially with the gang problems growing like crazy. Remember what happened in L.A.,the law ran and left the citizens to fend for themselves. Don't think it won't happen again,and maybe on a larger scale. __________________ USAF '62-'66 .

01-08-2008, 02:48 PM	#9
Coeloptera Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 1,916	This may make it tougher for other states to try and throw down more restrictive laws. If they can back it up with stats and a few more studies, it would be difficult to argue for further restrictions. Insofar as I recall, Vermont has next-to-no firearms legislation at all and their crime rate is vanishingly small. Hopefully the gun lobby will get on this and start working both sides of the political spectrum once primaries are done. If it is Obama, they need to start on him early and divert his priorities and demonstrate the potential safety of more training for citizens as well as the revenue. - Coeloptera

01-09-2008, 07:34 AM	#10
BloodRedStratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Westerville, Ohio Posts: 226	Way to go Michigan. I still won't got to Detroit. LOL

01-09-2008, 03:57 PM	#11
Jimbo Indy Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 75	I'm reading a couple of books by John Lott. He does a in depth statistical study on concealed gun permits and crime. VERY detailed, thousands of hours in data collection down to the county level. This guy lives in the world of statistics. In brief, his findings are that everywhere concealed carry is legalized, violent crime goes down. If the state adopts a "shall issue" carry law the crime reduces more than if it is a "may issue" state. Both types of concealed carry states have far less crime than restrictive states without or very limited concealed carry. Also, when concealed carry is legalized, crime tends to shift toward property crimes such as auto theft and larceny and away with violent crime such as murder, armed robbery and rape. I highly recommend this book, "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. Sorry, can't remember the title of the sequel. That is big on his conclusions. The first book is all about the data and statistical methods.

01-09-2008, 08:25 PM	#12
Windwalker Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 3,617	All states that I know of that passed a CCW law have had a reduction in violent crime. It happened here in Oklahoma too.

01-09-2008, 08:56 PM	#13
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 4,094 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	We have the proof that the opposite is true right in D.C. Why can't the blind idiots see that? Isn't that where they work? Or do they pretend to do the work they were elected to do, like they pretend to be smarter than the rest of us? Scotty __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge