[shep72]

I am getting into reloading and found this thread while looking for a comprable bullet to the a-max but more specific to hunting. I have been shooting the hornady 168 gr a-max for 4 years in my 308 rem. 700. I will say this has been the best bullet as far as accuracy goes as well as knock down power. And I can honestly say i have never lost an animal using this bullet. Deer drop and only the largest pigs run and usually not far at all. Last weekend I shot a 200 lb. boar in the shoulder at 160 yds. Knocked him over. The bullet penetrates well but because the a-max has a thinner casing the bullet, in this case completely came apart delivering all that energy into the chest cavity of the animal. The impact shoulder was salvaged but the shoulder opposing was completely chili. The suppreme accuracy of this bullet seems to be a no brainer for head shots. ( no pun intended) The last deer I shot a 80 yds. which is pretty common here in Texas was a heart shot dropped on the spot. clean in and about a quarter sized hole out, very little meat damage, except for the heart that is, again chili meat. Ok, so deer and hogs no problem. How about an Axis buck at 200 yds. Shot in the shoulder. Dropped like a sack of rocks. Clean in, hit ribs and the bullet remained in tact but lodged under the skin on the opposing side of the animal. These are my personal experiences and I belive what I personally find to be true. That being said, would I go shoot an elk with this bullet? Probably not, but there are better bullets for that. Shooting anything here in Texas even those big bad boars and heavy axis bucks, I'll hit em' with an A-Max any day.

[tuco]

Usually the folks that worry about a bullet exiting without dumping
all of it's kinetic energy have not spent much time trying to find
a blood trail from a bullet that didn't exit. Penetration and expansion need to be balanced, an FMJ is almost as poor a choice for deer size game as an A-MAX is. The deer is going to die regardless of what bullet you use, the question is how soon ( far ) and will it leave an adequate blood trail. Almost any varmint bullet will cause damage to medium/large game resembling an explosion, but in a certain percentage of cases, that extensive damage will not have enough penetration to be quickly fatal. In another percentage of cases, it may be quickly fatal, but no exit wound/no blood trail, you think you've missed until you see the buzzards circling the next day. Yes, the A-MAX or even FMJ will get a clean kill MOST of the time, but an ethical hunter isn't happy with MOST of the time. Use a bullet that is constructed for deer size game when hunting deer. Don't let the ravings of some
fools who have had success pushing their luck get you into trouble.

[twtalbot]

Quote:       Originally Posted by tuco

Usually the folks that worry about a bullet exiting without dumping all of it's kinetic energy have not spent much time trying to find a blood trail from a bullet that didn't exit. Penetration and expansion need to be balanced, an FMJ is almost as poor a choice for deer size game as an A-MAX is. The deer is going to die regardless of what bullet you use, the question is how soon ( far ) and will it leave an adequate blood trail. Almost any varmint bullet will cause damage to medium/large game resembling an explosion, but in a certain percentage of cases, that extensive damage will not have enough penetration to be quickly fatal. In another percentage of cases, it may be quickly fatal, but no exit wound/no blood trail, you think you've missed until you see the buzzards circling the next day. Yes, the A-MAX or even FMJ will get a clean kill MOST of the time, but an ethical hunter isn't happy with MOST of the time. Use a bullet that is constructed for deer size game when hunting deer. Don't let the ravings of some fools who have had success pushing their luck get you into trouble.

+1
Even a fatally shot deer can run far enough to make recovery iffy without a good blood trail. I like a bullet to make two holes for bleeding or break shoulder bones for dumping a deer right now-both of these depend on bullet integrity. BTW, a bullet striking and shattering bones can drastically increase the damage to the vitals.

[deadzero]

Thanks for bringing this one back up. I missed this on the first go-round. I use A-Max bullets for target rounds and get great accuracy but never intended to use them for hunting. one reason is I've never done any destruction tests with them and am pretty clueless as to what the round does when it strikes. I know the SST was the big game round, the V-Max was for the little critters and they make a SXT? if I remember right at least in 223 that pretty much explodes on impact. but besides for target use I never looked into what the A-Max bullet would actually do performance wise. based on what others have said in this thread, they will only be going thru paper, which is what they do best.

[Palladin8]

I tested the SST in 140gr 7mm out of my 280AI and I wouldn't want to use them on deer even. I had complete bullet failure shooting into wet phone books at 100yds. The core and jacket separated and the pieces I could find weighed less than 90grs. I had a muzzle velocity of 3100fps if I remember right so maybe I was pushing them to fast. I would rather use something like a game king or Interbond as they are heavier constructed bullets for those velocities I was shooting at. I also tested the Barnes in both 140 and 150gr bullets and they worked as advertised.

[Boone]

Sorry guys, I just posted the same question. Now that I've read this info by some people that I truly respect their advice, no A-Max for hunting for me. I will continue to punch paper with them. Thanks

[DaTeacha]

Not exactly A-Max, but an incident that bears hearing about -- Our club provides a handicapped hunter deer hunt each year. We take guys in wheelchairs to hard floored, roofed, permanent blinds on the club grounds, give them a radio, and let them be until they call us or we take them lunch or the day ends. 2 years ago one of them called after we had heard a shot, saying he had hit a deer. Ohio is a shotgun deer hunting state, no rifles. The guy was an experienced hunter using a 12 gauge with slugs. Our property is pretty thickly wooded so long shots wouldn't be available even if rifles were legal.

He directed us to where he said the deer was, about 75 yards out from his stand. 3 of us looked all around in the immediate area, and the only thing we found was a couple of tufts of belly hair right where he said it had been when he hit it. We figured he had just grazed the belly. He insisted that it was a solid hit, the deer jumped, etc.

We went back and looked some more, with two of the guys walking an expanding box while I decided to follow a faint trail through the wet leaves that they had dismissed as being made by one of the other deer in the group of 3 the guy had seen.

About another 200 yards from where we found the hair, I came upon the deer piled up on the far side of a log. It was good size doe. Upon cleaning it, we found the slug had entered the brisket area, cut the aorta, and stayed in the animal. The 12 gauge entry wound had closed, leaving no blood trail that we could see. There was hardly any external sign that she had been hit, with very little blood on the hair, even right around the wound. The deer had enough blood in the lungs to keep the Red Cross happy for a month, but there was no trail. All the bleeding had been internal. The deer was not lost or wasted, but an exit wound would have helped a lot in finding her sooner. The other guys had about given up and it was only because the trail I was following didn't peter out to nothing that we were able to harvest her.

Our handicap hunters had 75% success that day, which we considered pretty good for a group of guys in wheelchairs and one neophyte who was legally blind but could see through a scope well enough to shoot after a spotter showed him where to look - he got a nice little buck.

[JB Moore]

I have taken several deer using the A-max 168 in a 300 Win Mag hand loads. I make most shots to the head and have never had one run. A 166 pound buck dropped without takings a step. I served in Vietnam two tours and understand that no animal needs to suffer. I have made two chest shots beyond 300 yards but the interior damage was enought that they dropped instantly. I cannot understand the need of a hunter to track down the animal they just shot. I suggest to try what you like -- it is a free country. With that learn from your mistakes and enjoy the sport.

[samuel]

I just knew it wouldn't be long 'til we got the "perfect solution"! A headshot! Why don't I ever think of that? ,,,sam.

[gamehunter]

People are using amax projectiles for hunting here in new zealand and they have been very successful with them but it mainly the guys who are shooting out past 400 yards in the open tussock and alpine areas that are using them. A freind of mine was using amaxes in his 300WSM before he sold it and he also had great success everything went down and stayed down. it does not matter what bullet you use any of them not placed correctly are going to maim the animal and not kill them straight away. Put one in the head, neck or chest (in the heart and lung area) and it is good night irene.

[twtalbot]

Quote:       Originally Posted by gamehunter

People are using amax projectiles for hunting here in new zealand and they have been very successful with them but it mainly the guys who are shooting out past 400 yards in the open tussock and alpine areas that are using them. A freind of mine was using amaxes in his 300WSM before he sold it and he also had great success everything went down and stayed down. it does not matter what bullet you use any of them not placed correctly are going to maim the animal and not kill them straight away. Put one in the head, neck or chest (in the heart and lung area) and it is good night irene.

At those ranges, velocity has dropped off enough that the A-Max's thin jacket is probably appropriate for "controlled" expansion.

[samuel]

Isn't it wonderful that some find they can prove the engineers and designers of most any ammo dead wrong.The only part I am having trouble with is all I have is their word for it,no substantiation.At least the engineers and designers give facts and figures.They also do not say the match class won't kill,they only say they are prone to,and very apt to fail.The ones that post how great they are only tell they never fail.Sounds great to me,but I believe I have more faith in the designers with the facts,not stories on the net. ,,,sam.

[noordinaryjoe]

Anecdotal evidence, which is all most of us have in our personal experience simply is not scientifically valid. Unless you are a PH or journalist like Craig Boddington you can't possible have enough experience for it to be statistically significant.

Example, of you heard about a survey of 5,10, 20 or even 50 people that said they all thought drinking you own urine kept them from aging would you consider taking up the practice yourself?

That being said, just to throw another percpective out there - for centuries (yes CENTURIES) a .50 caliber muzzleloader throwing a 170gr lead round ball was considered absolutely appropriate for ALL North American game.....45-.50 caliber muzzleloaders have harvested more big game than any other type of rifle with any other type of projectile in this country.

Now, an astute observer would immediately point out that there is no need to be stuck in the past and that we shouldn't ignor newer technology in the interest of more humane and respectful harvesting of our cherished game, CHECK....but how much newer?

Must we all use what is touted as the latest and greatest technology available? How much better is the Amax than a .50 cal round ball? Let's see...

In a .308 win a 168gr Amax, which is a jacketed bullet leaves the muzzle over 1000 feet per second FASTER than the .50 cal muzzleloader - in magnums almost DOUBLE the velocity of the 170gr, soft, all-lead roundball. How *much* better than what was considered the premium standard for centuries must it be to be considered appropriate?

By some of the arguments that I have read here, you can only consider yourself an ethical hunter if you use the absolute MOST recent bullets out of the fastest uber-magnums on the market. Likewise, ANYONE still using a 30-30 would be considered unethical. (another cartridge that has taken WAY more big game than whatever else *you* are shooting!)

Should we outlaw archery and muzzleloader seasons because those weapons don't make the cut?

The solution, shoot whatever you want, but know it's limitations, spend LOTS more time at the range so that you can *always* make the shot placement you need to make a clean harvest, and *never* take a questionable shot that you aren't 100% sure of...that's ethical hunting.

My $.02,
-Joe

[6.5x55mm]

I shot a deer (175 lb. whitetail buck) this season with the 168 gr A-Max bullet you're considering, through a Tikka .308 with a heavy barrel. Shot was placed at low shoulder on a deer quartering toward me, and the bullet hit bone (ribs) as it entered. This was the first time I've shot a deer and recovered the bullet; usually my faster soft-point loads, or Winchester factory ammunition, goes through. Jacket and core were separated negligibly, and the projectile retained 72% of its mass. The bullet traveled something like 24" inside the deer and stopped because it hit (and broke) femur. The bullet didn't fail on entry at the ribs, for sure.

The deer abruptly died - he jumped, but he didn't make it more than 5 yards before arriving at his final resting place. Not the results we all prefer, where the animal falls straight down without a peep, but this was a pretty long shot too (220 yards). I thought twice before taking the shot, but was pretty confident in the accuracy of my A-Max loads. And here's where I have my summary argument: terminal ballistic performance is important, but you can't compute killing power without also accounting for bullet placement. I've had poorer performance with some of the all-time favorite hunting bullets (Nosler partition, Interlock...) because the shot wasn't exactly where it was intended to be, and was then too good at penetrating in the absence of bone, or too good at expanding when hitting bone.

So I don't feel unethical about my choice. The deer died quickly and cleanly. I would use A-Max again on smaller whitetails.

Since then I've started using the SSTs and will echo people's recommendation: I'd say they're a better choice because (I think) they stay together better. BUT, if you get sub-MOA groups with A-Max and only borderline accuracy with the cannelured SSTs, you make a pretty substantive exchange between terminal performance and accuracy, which may mean a "target" bullet is your best choice for hunting.

That's my two cents. Older and wiser people have told me to shoot deer with a setup I'm comfortable with, and to practice with it. At the time I killed a deer with an A-Max bullet, that was my setup. I'm glad I had it, and had practiced with it - it worked great and was remarkably accurate. Now I use SSTs after having worked up the loads to be accurate.

Good hunting!

[twtalbot]

At 220 yards, that bullet, fired from a .308 would have shed a significant amount of it's velocity, making up to a large extent for the bullet's light construction. The A-Max should do fine at extended ranges when fired from standard cartridges or even close range from mild mannered stuff like .303 Savage and .30 Rem, but the SST can handle a much wider velocity spread.

[turkn8r1]

Well since noone else wants to admit it I will. When I first started shooting my 30-378 I picked up some 150 grain AMAX's for it. I didn't read the part about them being for varments I thought they were a great looking tipped premium bullet from a reputable maker so I worked up loads for the rifle and got it really accurat with a load at 3650 fps. The first deer I shot was a 110 lb doe at 180 yards. I had previously hunted with a 270 and wasn'r thinking about the larger faster round so I shot her square in the shoulder broad side. It litterally blew her off her feet BUT she was up as soon as she went down was was visibly confused. Her whole side was covered in blood but I shot her again behind the shoulder and again she flew off her feet and stayed down this time. Upon inspection in the first shot the bullet had completely failed on impact and though it delivered all of it's considerable energy and dissoriented the animal the only damage was a huge crater blown out of her shoulder. Honestly the other shot wasn't that much better but the shrapnal did enough damage to dispatch her. They guys at camp ask about the bullets and that's when I found out about AMAX's being for varments. So I wen't to the Barnes bullets and have stayed there for that rifle. I loaded some sst's 95 grainers for my kid's 243 and they work quite well. Just my experience with using a varment bullet on a deer size animal. I haven't done it since and I research a bullet before I even decide to try it. I can honestly say with the exception of that 1 instance I have never been strapped with not having the right bullet for the game I intend to hunt. I don't let myself get in that situation. I think as previously stated, it all goes to ethics. If you are planning on hunting deer with a rifle why on earth would you make yourself totally dependent on a varment bullet. Case in point "That is all I have available". Just my 2 Cents.

[noordinaryjoe]

er, just to keep us on track here, a 150gr 'varmint' bullet???...out of a 30-378...which I'm sure y'all consider a 'varmint' cartridge, right??? (BTW, just a pet peave, but varmint is spelled with an 'I', it's not varMENT with an 'E'.)

Again, at least 'I' was talking about shooting within ethical limitations.

LRH folks that swear by Amax's use the heavier versions (168gr+) and at lower velocities - so taking *that* shot, at *that* distance, with *that* cartridge in the first place went straight to unethical.

Taking a shoulder shot only furthered this.

BUT - if our hunter that only had Amax's available was shooting a 308, with 168's, or with a magnum at longer ranges and stuck to a nice double lung shot and didn't attempt to break big bones...he could ethically do it.

If he, like all too many hunters, got wound up with excitement and *tried* to make the shot (you know who you are, and what you tried that you shouldn't have) and shot outside of the respected parameters...well, then...not so ethical.

Just like trying that 300 yard shot at a deer (that you've never even so much as *tried* at the range before) with your muzzleloader would be.

-Joe

[sluggo]

Old subject but A MAX 30 cal 168 gr bullets at 2550 FPS MV or better will definately kill deer quickly. I've used a 16" barreled AP4 in 308 win. If you don't place your shots carefully it will not only kill the deer but destroy alot of meat. Most shots beyond 50 yards will not completely penetrate the animal chest broadside but the inside chest cavity is left a mess. The bullets come apart quickly inside the animal bone or no bone blasting the organs and entails to pieces. One of the seven deer taken this year had a exit wound. None moved more than ten steps while most fell flat in their tracks. I shot four in the head and neck area and only three in the chest area. Two of the chest shots were quartering shots both away and facing. The effects on the body cavity, shoulder and ham can be extreme. One deer kill was less than 50 yards with the longest being a 325 yard kill. Most of the kills were between 50-100 yards. I kind of prefer an exit wound with less destruction of meat myself. Pick your shots carefully.

[wyoman]

This same question was brought up in general rifle about Sierra Matchkings! The A in A-Max stands for accuracy. the same for V-max(varmint). It was designed as a match bullet. There is nothing in it's construction, nor was there designed to be, that will ensure reliable expansion on game of any size. Can it work? Yes! But, are you willing to take the chance that your chosen bullet will fail because you are asking something of it that it was not designed for. I can get groups with Hornady SST's that are close to or equal to Sierra MK's. I have lots of FMJ ammo too. I know that if I put the bullet in the boiler room that the animal would die sooner or later. That's not the point. Hunting bullets are designed for the purpose of penetrating and damaging as much tissue as possible for the quickest, most humane kill. And do hunting bullets fail? Yes! Things go wrong. Thats a fact of life. As far as I'm concerned though, if you choose to use something for which it wasn't designed, you're gambling against higher odds. Now if people want to jump on me and trash me for this post, thats fine. But it's just my .02.

[6.5x55mm]

I think marketing has, for most of us, compelled us to have quite a lot of faith in the design of bullets. Bullets are designed to do things, and they often do those things. Sometimes we understand that the bullets' functions are tested, as in ballistic gelatin, etc., so there is good reason to expect design to translate well into application.

But I'm an empiricist. I can read all day that one bullet is designed for "hunting" while another bullet is designed for "accuracy" and I'll have little reason but to assume that the function follows the design. The point at which I'll believe it, though, is when I understand what the bullet does because I have known it do so.

For this reason I'll assume some variation in the appropriateness of manufacturer, and consumer, designations of design category. I'd encourage anyone to do the same.