Thoughts on conceal and carry versus crime rates?

[tlarkin]

Hi everyone.

In another thread we were discussing some legalities of gun ownership, and I brought up the question about seeing some hard data on if states that allow conceal and carry actually have lower gun related crime. The links I was given from from the NRA, so my first thought is that it was biased. I have searched and searched and found conflicting reports. Some things that I do see that seem to be about the same across the board are as follows.

70% of guns used in crimes are hand guns and 50% of those guns are semi automatic hand guns. Also, 1 out of 5 of them have long barrels (not sure exactly what that is).

It also seems that gun ownership goes up by about 1% each year in the USA. Many speculate it is because gun laws are now relaxed and people fear more gun control so they are buying while they can. I think its because we are a growing nation and tons of people turn 21 every day and have the right to purchase a gun (18 for rifles and some states I think are different).

In some cases it says it lowers crime rates of murder, rape, robbery and assault. However, it fails to mentioned where it pulled any of this data from. I know in larger cities there are still plenty of gun related crimes. I know where I live there definitely is. The thing is, most of the gun related crime is almost never done at random. Of course there are always some exceptions. Last summer I was out at the bars when a fight broke out (I was in an area of bars in midtown) that turned into a gun fight and a car chase. I heard the gun shots, but was luckily far away.

I like to think that I never put myself in a situation where I would never need to use a gun.

I heard a story of a bar in St. Paul or in Minneapolis, can't remember, where they allowed their patrons to carry guns. Apparently the story goes, some guys tried to rob the bar and all the patrons pulled out there guns. The side with the most guns usually wins, but that is a situation I would never want to be in. A bunch of drunks with guns. Also, I think in my state if you are caught under the influence carrying you get in big trouble, or at least that is what is suppose to happen. I am not sure if it is enforced.

I know perhaps in smaller cities and rural areas these laws probably make very little difference.

What are you thoughts on conceal and carry? I am not against it by any means because there are always those cases where you may need them and always people out there that do no good. However, I think there should be some regulation on it. If you are caught carrying under the influence of anything you should at least be suspended of your license immediately. Last thing I want is to try to reason with a drunk with a gun. I also think that if you break the law in any way you should lose your right to carry as well. I am sure these laws are standard but I am not sure if they get enforced.

Just like two years ago two punk 16 year old boys car jacked a couple who had just gotten engaged, and shot them both. The woman lived but the man didn't. This was outside a bar i used to frequent and was maybe a half a mile or less from my home. I want to say I wish they had something with them to protect them, but at the same time they were drunk at a bar. It is hard to say in my mind.

Thouhgts?

[Seabeescotty]

Conceales carry laws are more strictly enforced than the laws meant to deter crime. If you have a permit, and are found in a drinking establishment, you lose your permit immediately! And you may do some time in the local lockup. And according to the reports, people with CCW are the most law abiding, per capita, than any other segment of the population in the country. When you take on the responsibility of carrying a loaded firearm, it tends to make you more aware of the repercussions of breaking any law that pertains to you. So go get your permit, and join the ranks of law abiding citizens willing to face danger in order to protect themselves and their loved ones. Stop being a potential victim!

[A-10]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

Hi everyone.

Just like two years ago two punk 16 year old boys car jacked a couple who had just gotten engaged, and shot them both. The woman lived but the man didn't. This was outside a bar i used to frequent and was maybe a half a mile or less from my home. I want to say I wish they had something with them to protect them, but at the same time they were drunk at a bar. It is hard to say in my mind.

Thouhgts?

If they were both drunk, they shouldn't have been in a car to begin with.

Firearms or cars do not mix with drugs and alcohol.

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by A-10

If they were both drunk, they shouldn't have been in a car to begin with.

Firearms or cars do not mix with drugs and alcohol.

Yeah and if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. There are always if and buts, and like I said most violent crime in my area involves that; ifs and buts. Which supports my theory. People who conceal and carry are more likely to not be involved so those statics can't necessarily reflect safer environments with people carrying guns.

I guess the real argument is if everyone concealed and carried and went by those rules and repercussions then yes, everyone would be safer out of fear of breaking the law.

[TexasD]

Several years I had to do a report for a college English class on any subject of my choosing. This was to be a very comprehensive report that we had all semester to do except for the last 2 weeks. Any statements I made in this report I had to be able to back up with published facts. The subject I chose was the effect of concealed carry as it related to crime in Texas. In my research I mostly relied on the FBI Uniform Crime Report.

Federal Bureau of Investigation - Uniform Crime Reports

I found that violent crime in the state of Texas dropped about 40% from one year to the next(before and after CCW became law). My Professor was astounded. He said that he had expected it to drop some but had no idea it would drop that much because Texas is such a violent state to begin with. When I showed him the figures from the FBI report not only did I receive an A+ on the report but it also ensured that I did not have to take a final in that class because the paper accounted for 1/2 of the semester grade.

[Windwalker]

Most of the time when seconds count the nearest Cop is minutes(or more) away. If you are unable to protect yourself and your loved ones you will become a victim, possibly a dead victim. You choose whether the right to carry is right for you.

[Seabeescotty]

Only too true, Windwalker! And I repeat myself again. Every officer I ever talked to explained that protecting me is NOT part of their job description. Their job is to keep the peace, investigate crimes, and catch bad guys. If a cop says his job is to protect the public, he's not being honest. I've had a couple of occasions to call the authorities, and one time they called the next day and asked if they were still needed. By that time, the problem was resolved, without the help of my local protector of the public. Luckily it didn't get to extremes,or the sheriff's office would have been in court explaining why they never showed up. I always use a cell phone for calls of that nature, so I have evidence that can't be tampered out of existence. Not to say all officers are bad, to the contrary, most are the cream of our society. But bad apples pop up everywhere, and have to be weeded out. the problem is they are simply outnumbered, and it keeps getting worse with the riffraff from other countries whocome here to prey on innocent Americans. TThey figure the pickings are better here than in their own countries!

[Wingwiper]

The last TWO MASS killings at U.S. MALL, each Mall had a GUN SAFE ZONE sign by each entrance, which meant that all LTCs were to leave the guns at home.
It was an OFF Duty cop who ignored the sign and illegally carried his Concealed firearm into the mall that answered the call from the other side of the mall and took out the sicko.
It has been stated several times and college Campuses across the Nation are demostrating for the right to Carry. It takes very little in the way of the thought process to realize what the outcomes would have been in any of the several School shootings we have had, if the students were themselves armed and not seeking refuge because they had no way to defend themselves. how many would be alive today if the Gun Control Freaks took their heads out of their as-es and realized Cops can NOT be everywhere at the same time. Killers know this and usually have that in the equation, people have as much right to defend themselves as Off Duty cops who seem to be armed 24/7, my life is as important to me as his is to him.
McCain, Hillary and others want to attack the Second and if the Second goes down, which one is next????

Tlarkin you can also do a google and do a little research on two cities.

1. Morton Grove, Ill banned all firearms and made it a criminal offense to own one. VIOLENT Crime rates surged.

2. Lake City, Fla made in MANDATORY for all residents of the city to own a firearm, VIOLENT CRIME dropped quickly


KNOWLEDGE, REPLACES FEAR. Their KNOWLEDGE that I am ARMED, replaces my FEAR.

[Seabeescotty]

Bottom line, I want the means to defend me and mine when the need arises! Otherwise, the last thing I'll prob'ly see is the zipper on the body bag closing over my eyes!

[knightRider]

in kennasaw Georgia its a law you have to on a hand gun in you home to live in the city .

last 5 years 2 robberies , no murders

[LiveToShoot]

My research and personal experience repeatedly and strongly validates, without a shadow of doubt, that conceal carry is one of the strongest deterrents there is to reduce gun crime...coupled with having firearms in our homes, enforcing existing gun crime laws and ensuring persons who commit gun crimes pay the price for their crime, through tough sentences for gun crimes.

I wished there were laws that required individuals to keep, bear and safely use firearms, like is had in Switzerland. My personal belief is that we would then see a dramatic reduction in gun crimes in this nation.

[tlarkin]

Thanks for sharing it is very interesting to see these types of results. I still have to ask myself a few things though.

Is it a band-aid approach, or a real solution? I respect everyone's right to own a gun and to protect their loved ones and property. If someone were to break into anyone's house and try to cause them harm I totally believe in the right of self defense.

However, the more I look into it the more I try to stop and think. Most of these violent crimes happen in "inner-city environments" where people are poor, oppressed, and un-educated. I know where my parents and some of my family live there is very little crime at all, besides your local kids going out and causing havoc, but that is more of the boys will be boys type of thing. They never do anything more than minor vandalism and pranks. Which in itself is annoying but I don't think they should get shot over it.

Also, if someone has it in their head they are going to commit violent crime do you think they even stop and think about conceal and carry? I am not sure if they even do. I think people in those desperations will do whatever it takes, regardless of what may happen to them.

I am not saying that I want to take away anyone's rights, I am asking the question if it actually makes a real impact and of course I think there may be better solutions to issues that involve violent crimes. Carrying a gun may be a deterrent but I don't think it is a solution is all.

[Seabeescotty]

You're right, it's not a solution in itself, it's a way for honest citizens to defend themselves. One solution would be to put the bad guys away for longer periods of time, at hard labor, instead of weight-training, television, computers, and a soft time while behind bars. Give them the bare minimum, and make 'em work! Maybe they'll think twice about doing it again! But right now the bleeding hearts have made prison life more comfy than most honest people have out here. Don't baby them for commiting crimes, it doesn't help! They're in there to be punished, so punish 'em!

[LiveToShoot]

Boy, I couldn't agree with you more Seebeescotty...

The word and condition is "prison" not "pampering"!

[tlarkin]

Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

You're right, it's not a solution in itself, it's a way for honest citizens to defend themselves. One solution would be to put the bad guys away for longer periods of time, at hard labor, instead of weight-training, television, computers, and a soft time while behind bars. Give them the bare minimum, and make 'em work! Maybe they'll think twice about doing it again! But right now the bleeding hearts have made prison life more comfy than most honest people have out here. Don't baby them for commiting crimes, it doesn't help! They're in there to be punished, so punish 'em!

Actually this brings up a great point about how our prison system fails. I have been loosely following some of those documentaries about our prisons that have been out recently. Basically the short version of it is, a guy goes to prison for 3 to 7 years for s violent crime. He gets out in 2 years for good behavior, yet while in prison he gets the crap kicked out of him all the time. So, now he is tougher. He also has met thousands of other criminals, so he is now wiser and has more contacts. Prison really in all honesty just produces better criminals who when they get out can't get any honest work and turn back to what they know, which is crime. With his new wisdom he learned from other criminals while in prison and with all the new contacts he made while in prison it is now easier for him to commit crime and easier to get people to help him with it.

[Wingwiper]

Prison systems don't work because of the Whining, crying, people who want us all to build our Tolerance and be HUMANE to these poor little criminals. There was one case, where a creep who was addicted to Heroine and was given methadone to help him come of his addiction. I say let the S.O.B. Suffer.
We need PRISONS and not places that are better than their homes and offer more then their neighborhoods. End the Weight rooms, end the TV, end the smoking, and as in Arkansas bring back the chain gangs, end the FREE Schooling and FREE Training, they come out better trained than most of us and for FREE where we have to pay.

Violent CRIME is NOT just in INNER cities, I do not have a clue where you gained that info. There is as much or even more Violent crimes in RURAL areas, it just doesn't have as much of an impact.

I live in a Free state where everyone has a RIGHT by LAW to shoot to kill to protect life or property. The Left thought surly when the law was passed some 20 years ago, there was going to be a blood bath as people shot people and claimed the protection of he law. Hasn't happened but we don't have a High Crime rate either. You will never know if it is a deterent until you do it, but LTC should be EVERYONE'S right.

[Seabeescotty]

Here we go again, "It wasn't Jonnie's fault he robbed, raped, and tortured that 80 year old woman, it's society's fault for letting him grow up that way!". That's what the extreme left professors say, and teach their students. They call it collective guilt or some such garbage. As for me, if I was to catch that going on, Jonnie would be pushin' up daisies for eternity. How they can condone letting an animal back into society is way beyond my comprehension!

[Windwalker]

Tlarkin,there is an element of our society who do not work but derive their income from robbery, burglary, theft, and murder for profit. These are career criminals who plan their jobs, pick the locations to strike, and plan their getaway route. They do take into consideration concealed carry people first because they don't want to get killed or caught and second they don't want to attract attention. They will if possible commit their crimes in areas where concealed carry is illegal. But if confronted most will kill either an armed or unarmed citizen to escape.

[tlarkin]

Can you provide any hard data for this? I am not saying I disagree, I am saying I am just not aware.

I do agree with you that there are different levels of criminals, those who are smart and good at crime and those who are dumb and do crime and get caught over and over.

My state it is legal to conceal and carry, but I don't think it has made any impact, in fact in my experience crime has gotten worse over the last few years.

My apartment has been attempted broken into twice in the last few months while I was home. So, I have no idea how many attempts have been made when I haven't been home. I want to buy a house soon, and when I do, I will probably get a dog.

My neighborhood is awesome, but I live in the metro area so people from other parts of town can easily travel in, do whatever crime they want, and leave.

Last summer there was a group of people walking around the neighborhoods robbing people at gun point off their porches at night. Like I said, I live in a midtown area, so in the summer people sit out on the porch and drink beers all the time. Some group of people would walk up to them and pull out guns and rob them on the spot. The conceal and carry law had been in effect for at least over a year at this point.

So, to me, it is really hard to say if it actually affects crime rates.

[Cyrano]

tlarkin, passing a "shall issue" carry concealed weapons law does no good unless people can get the permits to carry concealed and unless the permits are valid in every square inch of the state. This is not always the case.

I can understand banning firearms from courthouses. Someone out for revenge has the target right out in the open with nowhere to hide, be it a judge, a D.A., a defense attorney, a defendant or a witness. It's banning weapons in other places to create "gun free zones" which should be renamed "murder with impunity zones" that I have a problem with.

More than a thousand years ago, the Vikings understood that an armed society must perforce be a polite society, for when everyone is armed your life depends on your having good manners. This lesson has been lost on the anti-gunners. A Viking could go armed anywhere, even into the Althing, the combination court and representative assembly that made the laws. If he drew a weapon, he had to have a very good reason or he'd end up skewered. If he killed someone, he had to be able to prove self-defense or he'd be in the deep stuff, subject to exile from the country for years, or even forever. The worst penalty was reserved for someone who killed a married man with children without cause or provocation: the murderer had to marry the widow and bring up the kids as his own (you can imagine how little fun that had to be)! But by and large, the Viking community was peaceful, because everyone was armed and everyone knew what would happen if you broke the peace.

CCW works only if the political hacks do not pass laws aimed at making it difficult to impossible in fact for honest citizens to go armed. A 'right' one cannot exercise because the government will not permit you the means to exercise it is not a right at all. I am hoping the Supremes will make a sweeping decision that knocks all prohibitions on forbidding carriage of weapons down save the ones like no felons, no addicts, no mental cases, but realistically I think they will make a narrow one aimed at hyper-restrictive laws like DC's only. But the fact remains that everywhere must-issue CCW is the law, crime rates are substantially lower. You can't argue with the record.