[Nanders]

Long story short: I have a remington 870 for my home defense gun. My little sister lives with me, but she doesnt have anything that goes boom, in the case of an unforseen emergency. (she is 24 so, its not like she cannot handle a firearm)

Anyhow, since I keep my shotgun in my bedroom closet, she obviously cannot use it to protect herself. I am going to get a weapon to put in her room, just in case. The question is, what are the best choices for a smallish girl? I was thinking about a short barrelled 20 guage, but that might be too much recoil for a lighter person to get a second shot if needed. I also thought about a revolver, like a .357 sig. with hollow pts.

I assume that hollow points would open up while passing through a wall, therefore it wouldnt be quite so bad.

By the way, I am fairly new to firearms, and do not know 1/50th of what the average person on this board knows. So please do not be afraid to correct any of my assumptions or statements! Also I told her that when I get a gun for her to keep in her room, that she is NOT to leave her bedroom during a break in. She just needs to stay in her room and only use it if the intruder comes in her room. I told her to call the police first thing while sitting patiently with the gun. (the last thing I want her to do, or myself for that matter, is try and sweep the house. Neither of us are trained in tactics etc.)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[neophyte]

Nanders: Sir; bless your heart for thinking things through. Sir; 20 gauge is fine; .410 will be fine.
410 gauge
16 gauge
20 gauge
12 gauge
Sir; you probably already know: smallest gauge to the largest in what is considered standard.
Without question any of these will fit.
There are women at this site; I've read what they are shooting; that us the 12 gauge or something that bangs around about the same.
Remington has the 870 in 20 gauge; good choice
5 shot versus 2 in a double barrel 1 in a single shot.
Follow up with a little more info. Don't rush; this is an important decision.

[fred]

Some ranges rent handguns. If your local range does this, take her down for a shooting session and see what fits her hand. I would rank accuracy over power, especially for a smaller person, but remember that you can shoot .38 spl or .38 spl +P loads in a revolver chambered for .357. I personally favor a revolver over an auto, but a lot of people feel otherwise. For her to shoot it well it has to be something she feels comfortable with.

[The_Patriot]

Hi there. Someone else had a similar question the other day. Instead of spending the time to tailor it exactly to your issue, I have cut-and-pasted my post from the other day. Most of it still applies.

Oh, and a couple quick things... Read below, but just to let you know, a .410 has MORE than enough power to put down a human threat at close range.

Second, some people don't know that, under many circustances, hollow points become solid points. Depending of various factors such as density of solids, velocity, etc., hollow points can actually plug up and not expand whatsoever. I've seen demonstrations of it using plywood and ballistics gel.

Anyway, please read below from a previous post...


Howdy.

First, you have to realize that nobody here can answer a question like that for you. It's like asking, "what kind of car should I buy?" Or "What is the best pair of jeans?"

It comes down to what you need it for, your proficiency and intentions to learn and several other factors.

I saw that someone already mentioned renting guns. YES, YES, YES. This is a fine way for a newbie to firearms to learn about different handguns. Talk to a knowledgable dealer and don't be afraid to ask questions. Take your wife along and have her hold different firearms. Find something that is comfortable and something she can fire safely, with confidence.

It is also beneficial (maybe before doing what I suggested above) to take a firearms safety and orientation course. There are many kinds of these courses available just about anywhere. A local dealer may have more information on it. Try a Google search if you can't find much--they are definitely available. One MUST gain confidence with a firearm to use it successfully under stress, and a part of that is safety. Safety is PARAMOUNT for any new gunner. It cannot be stressed enough.

Once you get the basics and have chosen a firearm, find yourself a range and practice. Have your wife practice, too. There is NO substitute for this step. If you ever want the ability to use a gun effectively under stress, you must become highly proficient with it. Practice, practice and more practice.

Do you have little kids in the house? This may be a factor in choosing a weapon. I keep all my long guns locked up and keep two pistols nearby in gunvault gun safes. I do this because I have a quite inmature 7-year-old. I've taken him shooting and try to teach him safety, but I'm not quite ready yet to trust him fully. If you have kids, teach them about firearms now, and factor it into your plans.

I think I could go on and on, but I'll just leave you with a couple other thoughts...

Be sure to learn about the laws in your state. It's imperative that anyone owning a gun, and one thinking of using it for defense, to understand the law. They vary greatly and you must have a good grasp of your responsibilities where you live.

Last thought...hmmm... Be sure to think about ALL the other factors that affect your safety and play into the defense of your family. By asking about a firearm for you and your wife, I'm guessing you're making a step towards protecting you and yours. If that's the case, be sure to think about so many other things... Do you have a house? Do you trim bushes away to reduce hiding areas for criminals? Do you have good outdoor lighting? Do you have a dog? Do you have a security system? Or motion detectors (which I LOVE)? Do you always lock your doors? Do you ever answer your door without looking? Do you have a phone near the bed? Do you have a plan on what to do if you hear an intruder at night? Do you have stairs? Are you going to defend the stairs? Or go looking around your home? Do you park under lit areas at night? Do you always look around before you get out of your car? Again, this is something that can go on forever. In short, there are a ton of aspects that a lot of people don't consider (and a lot do). Protecting yourselves goes way beyond buying a gun and putting it in the nightstand...it's educating yourselves, practicing sound procedures, reducing risk and plannning (physically and mentally) for contingencies.

By asking your question, hopefully you're off to a good start. Read forums, get a few books on personal or home defense? THINK about the risks in your lives. Condition White is where the oblivious live (they live in a world where bad things don't happen)...avoid that thinking; learn to see risks and take steps to avoid them. This doesn't mean be paranoid; it means be cognizant of your environment.

I'm rambling. I need to hit the sack.

Okay, one last thought. Remember this--caliber is not nearly as important as bullet placement. Repeat that in your head. You will hear a lot of talk about calibers and stopping power, but what is really important if things turn into a gunfight is that you or your wife have confidence with your chosen weapon and have the ability to fire it effectively and efficiently under stress. You must have a weapon you guys are comfortable with. A .45 is completely worthless if you or your wife can't control (or won't practice with because of the recoil/weight) it and the round ends up in a wall. Think about that before you make a purchase. I'd rather have a single, well-placed .22 in my assailant over 10 missed .45s any day of the week. Make sense?

To recap:

1) Find a gun that is YOUR gun, not based off others' recommendations.

2) Get educated quickly on SAFETY, laws, risks and risk-reducing behaviors.

3) Learn your gun and get (and stay) proficient with it.

4) Understand that security for your family is serious, and it is much wider than any single firearm. There are a ton of factors to consider, both at home, on the road and where you go away from home. Do your best to recognize and reduce risks.

Best of luck...hope to hear things went well. Update us.

[ouch]

I would recommend a semi auto. 9mm or stronger. Be thankfull that you do live in the USA. Make sure you can defend yourselve against the gang bangers and meth heads.

Long live the US constitution and hope that you don't vote for those that think only the priviledged can only have weapons. I am thinking about the speaker of the house Nancy P. who has a concealed permit but doesnt agree that normal people have the same right. Also consider her chronies the Democrat presidental canidates who agree with her.

I took an oath to the US constitution in 1970. I was under oath to defend the constitution and then to defend the commander in chief. I was never told to resend the oath.

If I did not comply to this oath they could eliminate me I am sure.

I would ask that many of you should enlist in the armed forces of the United States. Freedom is not free.

[Nanders]

Wow, thanks for all of the excellent insights and thoughts!

Here is what I would like to do, take my sister to a range and try a few different guns to see what she is most comfortable with. Assuming that we find a pistol and a shotgun that she feels comfy with, do any of you guys feel that I should lean one way or the other, assuming we find one of each that she feels equally comfortable with?

I know this may be hard to pinpoint (all things being equall, should I lean one way or the other), but I am curious about your personal opinions.

It makes sense that all the stopping power in the world is useless if you are missing. That is a very solid point.

Another thing I am trying to consider; If she likes a pistol better, should I go for the revolver or semi auto? I am fairly ignorant to guns, but I would assume (I could be wrong) that a revolver doesnt use any springs that could weaken, and therefore might be more reliable for a second shot. This is purely my speculation, on the other hand a semi auto could be more reliable (I wouldnt have the foggiest idea if it is or not), and may be less bulky to handle and have less recoil to boot. Again, I am not sure until we start looking more closely.

How often should a person "keep up" on their gun skills? Would once a month be adequate?

If on the other hand she feels more comfy with a shot gun, would it be better to have a pump, or a semi? Does the risk of a semi auto jamming outweight the time and effort (possibly taking your aim off the target) it takes to pump the gun?

To ouch: I share your sentiments regarding our rights as Americans. I have a tremendous amount of gratitude toward folks that have served this country.

[stitchclimber]

I would get a pump shotgun for home defense. It's not quite the scatter gun that everyone thinks, but it's pretty fool proof to operate, it has the terrifying value (the sound of a shell being chambered) and the scary looks of a shotgun. Plus if she's going to stay in her room it will be very easy to handle and send lead into the doorway.

IF she does want to do a handgun, I would suggest a double action revolver. There are no safeties to forget turn off, no round to chamber, just a longer trigger pull and a bang. Real hard to mess up while you're pissing your pants.

[GlockMeister]

Seeing as how you said, you're going to get something to put in her room "just in case", might I suggest then that you get her one of the Mossberg JIC (Just In Case) shotguns? Here is what I'm talking about.
O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc. - Firearms, Shotguns, Rifles, Accessories, and Precision Machining
Click on more models to see other styles/finishes/choices. There are 3 different styles to choose from. Of course if you don't want her to have or if she doesn't want a shotgun, then obviously, don't waste the time following the link. I believe, a shotgun would serve her best though. A shotguns pattern as you know is quite large, depending on the choke of course, but if she has to use it, and she's scared, or in a panic, aiming dead on isn't really a priority. Just has to be in the general direction. Sometimes the noise or a little buckshot can send an intruder running. They are 6 shot capacity. They come with a case for storage also. Worth looking into.

If that isn't an option or she just wants something else, then I would recommend a revolver. Especially if she is inexperienced with firearms. A revolver, is easier to use. If a round doesn't go off, then just keep pulling the trigger until one does. With a semi-auto, if there is a jam, and since she sounds inexperienced, it could end up costing her because in a panic, she may not remember what to do to clear the or a jam or stove piped round.

As patriot said, no one can really decide except her. She has to be able to use it and be comfortable using it. As others have suggested, a trip to the range, trying several different kinds, revolvers and semi-autos alike, can be the best thing for her.

Again, you asked for help, ideas and or suggestions. Mine would be either a shotgun, due to large pattern, no need to really aim dead on, just general vicinity. Also, less chance of buckshot to penetrate through the walls, especially if an apartment. Now there's another thing to consider. If she lives in an apartment, a revolver and a semi-auto round can go through the walls if she has to use it, possibly hitting some innocent bystander.

Good luck with what ever choice she makes. No matter which she goes with, PRACTICE with it until she is comfortable and it becomes second nature for her to handle and use.

G-Meister

[stitchclimber]

G-Meister, just out of curiosity have you ever shot one of those pistol grip pumps?
In my opinion, they're A: a bitch to practice with (they hurt like hell) and B: they're really hard to aim... (I'm always over aiming)

I agree that shotgun would be the best choice but, I would take a useful shotgun with a stock over a pistol grip that you don't practice with and can't hit anything with.

I'm an experienced shooter and I put the stock back on my 18" mossberg. It looks cooler with the pistol grip though.

[SilverRun]

A 12ga pistol grip shotgun would HURT a smaller woman - heck it would hurt me! I like my shotguns, but I disagree that it is the best choice here. I think you are on the right track with the .357 revolver. Get her that and take her out and practice. No need to get fancy here - if she loves shooting, then you can get fancy later. Don't forget to get her a nice surefire tactical light to go in the nightstand with the revolver - can't hit what you can't see!

[TXplt]

4" barrel .357 like Ruger GP-100 would be a starting point for me. She should go to the range and see what she likes to shoot by renting or trying out the guns. DON'T start out with the full house .357 -- start off with some target .38 rounds (i.e. cheap and not real high velocity). You can work your way up to the stronger rounds, but if someone's first exposure to shooting is cor-bon .357's their desire to shoot in the future may not be that great. The .38 can be fired thru the .357 and you might even want to use the lower powered +P rounds for self and home defense depending on your situation. The advantage to a handgun is it's securability (i.e. you can secure it in a fast acess safe) and pointability while the other hand holds flashlight, etc. However, YOU CAN MISS !

I believe that a revolver used for home or self defense should always be loaded with hollowpoint or some style of expanding ammo except in specific cases like animal defense, etc. Hollowpoints can easily penetrate thru walls; they're just less likely to bounce around and maybe will stop a bit quicker than solids. The glazer safety slug (made by cor-bon/dakota ammo) might be a good compromise in that it's designed to be powerful but not overpenetrate. I'd personally stay away from the Mag-Safe (not mag tech) stuff--I had a bad experience with some of their frangible rounds.

Good luck.

Also, I have a similar situation. Wife doesn't mind shooting handguns but doesn't stay really proficient other than the mechanics. We use a Taurus Judge and load it with .410 bore bird, buck, then .45 colt. The thought process is that this will give a better chance for a hit in a high stress situation. I wouldn't start someone off shooting in this type of gun (at least not the ultralite) because it does recoil significantly. But she might find she likes it...just a thought.

[The_Patriot]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Nanders

Wow, thanks for all of the excellent insights and thoughts! Here is what I would like to do, take my sister to a range and try a few different guns to see what she is most comfortable with. Assuming that we find a pistol and a shotgun that she feels comfy with, do any of you guys feel that I should lean one way or the other, assuming we find one of each that she feels equally comfortable with? I know this may be hard to pinpoint (all things being equall, should I lean one way or the other), but I am curious about your personal opinions. It makes sense that all the stopping power in the world is useless if you are missing. That is a very solid point. Another thing I am trying to consider; If she likes a pistol better, should I go for the revolver or semi auto? I am fairly ignorant to guns, but I would assume (I could be wrong) that a revolver doesnt use any springs that could weaken, and therefore might be more reliable for a second shot. This is purely my speculation, on the other hand a semi auto could be more reliable (I wouldnt have the foggiest idea if it is or not), and may be less bulky to handle and have less recoil to boot. Again, I am not sure until we start looking more closely. How often should a person "keep up" on their gun skills? Would once a month be adequate? If on the other hand she feels more comfy with a shot gun, would it be better to have a pump, or a semi? Does the risk of a semi auto jamming outweight the time and effort (possibly taking your aim off the target) it takes to pump the gun? To ouch: I share your sentiments regarding our rights as Americans. I have a tremendous amount of gratitude toward folks that have served this country.

All things equal, I'd recommend a pistol. I'd do that in the event she took a shining to the hobby and wanted to get a concealed license. I'm not sure if you have a CCW where you're at, but if you do, I always encourage folks interested in protecting themselves and their communities to get out, get educated, get proficient and get licensed. I believe an armed society is indeed a polite one...and a more secure one.

Pistols are also easier to conceal in a ready-to-use safe in the event she ever has children and wants to still have a gun nearby. Shotguns make it more difficult if you want to keep them from kids, yet keep them close enough to access.

If she does chose a shotgun, as I wrote before, there's nothing wrong with going all the way down to a .410 for home protection. A .410 has a ton of energy out of the muzzle; most home encounters are going to happen at very close range (at least the ones where you should be pulling the trigger). It'll be enough to stop any threat. I echo what others have said...pumps are good choices. The sound is intimidating and most people, even from watching movies, know how to use them.

Whatever is chose, get proficient at it. Real life is very unlike the movies. You can't just buy a gun, let it sit there, and hope to employ it effectively in a highly stressful and probably surprise situation. You have to spend a considerable amount of time practicing with the weapon and mentally considering your tactical strategy if you're faced with a home invasion. As to how much range time? It probably varies person to person, but one thing is for sure, the more you practice, the more proficient you are. The more proficient you are, the more likely that training will take over and save your life. I would think once a month would be the minimum if you were serious about keeping skills sharp. At times, I was going every week, but I've slacked off a bit.

If she goes to a pistol, you'll find many that will argue revolvers; many to argue semi-autos. Heck, you'll find someone to argue for every kind of gun made. I would say this--it probably doesn't matter what you choose. If you get one that is comfortable, you get/stay proficient, understand the laws, plan for contingencies, and keep your weapon clean and serviceable, the gun decision won't make or break the outcome when the time comes (let us pray it never does), the former aspects will.

Oh, and find yourself a good gun shop when you go renting. Most gun shops in this nation have an old grey beard behind the counter that'll be able to help you guys navigate the pistol choices. They've heard it all before. Listen to them.

Personally, I have a Glock 20 in my bedroom hand safe (10 mm) and a Glock 30 as my concealed carry gun (.45) in my den hand safe. Both have treated me right over the years. I'd trust either of them with my life. Those are MY choices, though. Either of those are probably too much for the average small woman.

One last thought, please consider gun-related training/classes. They might sound lame, but I guarantee you guys come out of there with all sorts of good information and things you never thought of. They're worth their weight in gold. Trust me.

Oh, one other point.

A few folks in here have talked about flashlights.

I am not saying anyone is wrong or right, just something to think about. Keep in mind that I also keep a flashlight by my guns.

The point:

If I'm at home and there is a home invasion, none of my initial moves are going to be to turn on a flashlight. By doing so, I'd give up tactical advantage. In an invasion/intrusion, where the one and ONLY goal is to protect my family, I will be thinking purely defensively. I am not concerned about my old 8-track player, that can be replaced. I am not going hunting an enemy I don't understand (numbers, weapons, etc.). If I get hurt/killed, I've failed at my mission. Nope, I am going to take cover in a tactically advantageous position (in my house, behind a corner near the top of the winding stairs). I will ensure 911 is called, but only after establish my presence between the threat and my family. There is enough outside light from the neighborhood for me to detect movement around the stairs. I am not going to lose my advantage by shining a light and give up my location. Homeowners know the interiors of their homes WAY better than an intruder, and that gives them a tremendous tactical advantage, even in the dark. Use your familiarity to your advantage. The first time I'm giving up my position is when I use a command voice and issue instructions to the predator.

It was just a thought that I wanted to share. I'll only use my flashlight if circumstances change and I am forced from a defensive posture.

Again, everyone has their reasons for their own thinking. I'm just throwing that out there as food for thought.

[nathangdad]

As you can shoot yours thus you can teach her to shoot hers. Get a cylinder bore screw in choke and teach her to shoot a combination of shot and slug. A shorter barrel would be preferable for quick handling. The slugs will give an advantage the smaller number of shot will not provide thus should be included in your loading order.

This would be better than a handgun for a beginner needing a defense weapon.

[GlockMeister]

Quote:       Originally Posted by stitchclimber

G-Meister, just out of curiosity have you ever shot one of those pistol grip pumps? In my opinion, they're A: a bitch to practice with (they hurt like hell) and B: they're really hard to aim... (I'm always over aiming) I agree that shotgun would be the best choice but, I would take a useful shotgun with a stock over a pistol grip that you don't practice with and can't hit anything with. I'm an experienced shooter and I put the stock back on my 18" mossberg. It looks cooler with the pistol grip though.

You know stitch, I haven't, and now that you've said that, that was one thing I didn't consider about her having to use. But there is an ATI stock which has not only the grip but a 4 or 6 position collapsible stock, AR style, you can get. I've seen the JICs on gunbroker.com for about $280 or so and the stock kit I speak of for about $65 bucks or so.

I recently converted my Mossberg model 500 that had wood stock to a tactical home defense. Took the 12ga.28" vent ribbed barrel with the select-a-choke off, bought and put on the 18" security barrel with cyl. choke and front bead sight on it and bought one of the ATI pistol grip with collapsible AR style stocks on it.

I also didn't check if the JICs come in any other caliber then 12ga. That might be a little to potent for a first gun for her. But, with practice who knows, she may handle it and shoot better then her bro? lol That oughta get some sibling rivalry going between them? lol

G-Meister

[SwedeSteve]

20 Ga auto shotgun, 18" bbl. #6 or #7 1/2 shot won't penetrate walls. Put white tape on end of barrel so you can see it in the dark.

[samuel]

.12ga with reduced recoil loads,full youth model stock,fiber optic front sight,preferably a 500 mossy for the tang safety.At least once a month practice and dry runs without firearms in the house.You dont need field loads at a few feet.Any shot in reduced recoil from # 7 1/2 shot to #4 buck.Possibly a light or lazer attached.Keep it as simple as possible.Learn to operate in dark or lights in front of you. sam.

[Windwalker]

The trip to the shooting range and allowing her to shoot various types and calibers of handguns and shotguns to find something she is really comfortable with is an excellent idea. For home defense I would prefer a 20 ga. shotgun in either semi-automatic or pump. It has lighter recoil, sufficient ammo capacity and less wall penetration. I personally use a 20 ga. pump for these reasons.

[samuel]

.12ga reduced recoil doesnt kick as bad as a .20ga field load to me.Dont let her shoot without "HEARING PROTECTION" as the "BOOM" is what makes most beginers think they kick. sam.

[neophyte]

Nanders: Sir; give considerations to all well these thought out answers.
Another consideration
using handguns requires practice
using a shotgun requires practice

You have an 870: rack that sucker and any 'bad guy' coming will enjoy a cold chill.

'Bad Guy' continues coming; the racket of 870
going off
Sound is a marvelous thing.

A well broken in 870 will rack and crack
A well conditioned operator: can cause extreme damage quickly

An 870 user doesn't have to shoulder fire
An 870 user can use 'beltline' hold, pump, and shoot
Operator must be willing to PULL THE TRIGGER

[madcratebuilder]

That a look at this .410
View topic - HS410 Revamp (for all you Mossy haters LOL)
If you could find a used one to mod, it would be a low cost deal. Loaded with #4 it would be very a formidable weapon, light recoil, and no penetrating through walls.