[ArkansasHunter]

YEP

[ezearln]

Billy from me to you a word of caution if you cannot control the actual temepratures you need a means of monitoring them DAILY Painting the shed BRIGHT WHITE as well as the suggestions for increasing ventilation and controlling humidity are all excellent suggestions however. If this shed has no means of temperature CONTROL you should have a means of monitoring temps within your shed and recording them. High temperatures regardless of source are destructive and dangerous for any quantity of ammunition. Ammunition stored at temperatures exceeding 125 deg F for excessive periods (48 hours or more) can make ammunition unstable and dangerous to shoot or handle, extreme cold can affect performance of the ammuition but high temperatures are dangerous! Military ammunition is maintained under rigorous control, ie: temperatures are monitored daily and recorded inspections for odor indicating decay signs of seepage indicating componant breakdown are monitored regulary and recorded that is why our military still can safely use ammunition stored for 40 or more years. I recommend that you obtain a "High/Low" recording thermometer and prepare a temperature record sheet to post within the shed so you can track the temperater exposure of your ammunition. You shold be able to find a High/Low thermometer online such as this one:



It comes with instructions as to how to use it and costs all of $16.00 plus shipping cheap peace of mind when storing several thousand rounds of expensive ammunition!

Make sure to NOT mount it directly to an exterior wall but on a stand off mounting board or hang it securely in the center of the shed. These are simple and effective , used em for over 20 years in the Navy while caring for several thousand tons of the governments ammunition. Good Luck to you.

[billy]

ok back to square one,
24inches of solid building insulation will just have to do..
there is NO OTHER PLACE i can put this shit.
this is where it is going to be .
that box will have an R factor of 120!!!!!!!!!!!!!
an average 2x6 stud insulated house wall has a r factor of r 19

i did find this:
Military cartridges are designed to be stored at temperatures ranging from minus 65 degrees Fahrenheit to 122 degrees Fahrenheit. They were created for soldiers to use under the worst conditions imaginable. These same cartridges also have an indefinite shelf life. The term shelf life refers to how long an item can remain in storage and still be functional.
The companies that manufacture military ammo are well aware of their requirements and specifications. They are also well aware that if they do not meet the criteria, they will lose a rather large contract with the US Government. The interesting thing to note is that the same companies that create and sell ammunition to the government are the same folks that make most of the stuff we civilians use. The same guys that create the 5.56mm for the military change the label, call it a 223, and sell it to civilians! When it comes right down to it, there is little to no difference in the ammunition common to civilians and to military. Therefore, it is generally safe to use similar procedures in storage methods and practices.
Most ammo comes in a wooden outer container with metal inner packs that actually hold the ammo. The military stores theirs at least two inches off the ground and makes sure that it is inspected every five years. Standard procedure is to actually look at just ten percent of all the ammunition to see if any defects have developed. They are then placed back in storage for another five years. If any corrosion has developed on the ammo, copper or steel wool is used to scrub and scrape it off.
The number one adversary of ammunition is moisture. As long as your container is waterproof, you should not expect any problems. Another common military tactic is to include dehumidifier packages in the ammo containers to suck up any surplus moister that may have gathered.
Our basic conclusion is this: before you store your ammunition, make sure it is clean and dry. That's all! There is no need to store at a specific temperature, there is no need to vacuum seal anything. Just keep ammunition protected and dry and then let it be.

[ezearln]

Billy I got news for you Military ammunition is monitored DAILY, any ammunition, pyrotechics and explosive devices stored in Ready Service Lockers (essentially what your shed is) are even more closely monitored. Your article you shared even notes exactly what I told you didn't it? If you have no way to CONTROL temperatures and insulation isn't control my friend, then you need to monitor those temperatures DAILY. You stated you live in the south west and at times when entering that shed it caused you to nearly faint! Imagine if you will that your expensive and sometimes hard to obtain ammunition were stored at say 160-170 degrees F for oh say 3-4 weeks in that shed and you had no idea to it's exposure time, now do you really want to put what is now in all likelyhood a dangerously unstable cartridge into your favorite rifle and pull the trigger not knowing whether or not you may have spectacular new facial piercing to show all your friends? And moisture is the number 1 enemy of modern ammunition, high temperatures are #2 and the most dangerous to the end user as it's effect upon ammunition is not apparent in most cases to the naked eye! If temperature were not a vital consideration then the military would not bother to spend billions of dollars on magazines and cooling systems within them to control it! I maintained those systems and others in caring for and storing vast quantities of ammunition and explosives. Moisture my destroy your ammo, extreme long term exposure to very high temperatures can kill you or destroy your weapon!
OBTW Signed respectfully
Earl C Norwood
Gunner's Mate Guns First Class
United States Navy Retired
Anchor's Away!

[ArkansasHunter]

ezearln I commend you on the excellent post.
Do you happen to know an ideal temperature to store ammo ?????? I got PM

[billy]

alrighty then,
i will put a hi low thermometer in it and see what the highest it goes is.

and do something like this for the summers

white of course

[ezearln]

AH under Normal conditions modern ammunition is very forgiving, ultra extreme cold affects performance but ultra high temperatures (at least ultra high in regards to ammo stowage) of 125 deg F or more can begin to degrade the propellents and cause them upon ignition to create extremely high chamber pressures. Any storage within Normal comfort ranges for a human being are more than acceptable for ammunition 60-100 degrees per se with 100 at the very end of the high scale and hopefully very limited exposure at even that temperature. And Billy please understand my ONLY concern is for the safety of you and and the rest of my friends here at G&G...

[samuel]

Lots of that surplus ammo you people have been shooting since the second world war came out of caves and warehouses from all over the world with only a vacuum seal and no temperature control.Some of those warehouses range from -30% in winter to +120 in summer and a lot of it was discovered years after the 1st and 2nd world and sure as he** had no monitoring.Further I never heard of magazines being monitored dayly and would like to see proof of that.I am sorry but this deal of powder breaking down and becoming unstable is absolutely wrong.Dynamite will if you dont turn the cases over and such.TNT wont for years.Gun powder will be about the same 30yrs from now as it is now as long as it doesnt get wet.Believe what you please but it is not dangerous to store ammo.If it were we would all be gone.I dont know of how many old boxes of ammo have been found in a garage with no heat control and no monitoring in years and unless it had gotten wet it worked normally.Eazerln I love you like a brother but I cant go along with what you posted. sam.

[billy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ezearln

AH under Normal conditions modern ammunition is very forgiving, ultra extreme cold affects performance but ultra high temperatures (at least ultra high in regards to ammo stowage) of 125 deg F or more can begin to degrade the propellents and cause them upon ignition to create extremely high chamber pressures. Any storage within Normal comfort ranges for a human being are more than acceptable for ammunition 60-100 degrees per se with 100 at the very end of the high scale and hopefully very limited exposure at even that temperature. And Billy please understand my ONLY concern is for the safety of you and and the rest of my friends here at G&G...

well heck!
it gets 100 f. in my house!

[ArkansasHunter]

Deep Caves and Caverns I believe hold to a temperature of around 58 degrees year round Sir.

[samuel]

Quote:       Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

Deep Caves and Caverns I believe hold to a temperature of around 58 degrees year round Sir.

Right on,but a lot of this surplus ammo these people are using came iut of warehouses,stored there for years and went through extreme temperature changes,the same as the surplus guns did.If I am wrong just prove it as there must be documentation. sam.

[billy]

ok back to square one,
24inches of solid building insulation will just have to do..
there is NO OTHER PLACE i can put this shit.
this is where it is going to be .
that box will have an R factor of 120!!!!!!!!!!!!!
an average 2x6 stud insulated house wall has a r factor of r 19

it will be impossible for the box inside temp to match the peak temps of the shed.

[ezearln]

Samuel, I am a retired Navy Gunner's Mate. One of my many duties in that rating was to do a "DAILY MAGAZINE" inspection and record the high and low temperatures recorded on the HIGH/LOW thermometer's installed in each and every magazine and ready service locker which record was maintained upon a daily magazine temperature card within those spaces then each day for our daily reports we were required to report to the Commanding Officer upon a magazine condition and temperature report for the highest temperature recorded and which magazine or locker in which it had been recorded. We were also required by regulation to record and monitor any magazine or locker whose temperature was over 100 deg F on an hourly basis, any ammunition such exposed was to be recorded by NALC (Navy Ammunition Logistics Code) and Lot number any exposure to temperatures in excess of 125 degress was to be cooled artifically by a variety of methods and it's temperature to be monitored continously, if exposure to 125 deg F were to continue past a certain number of hours (dependant upon what type ordnance involved) it was to be report to NWC Crane and disposed of over the side if at sea or immediately to the nearest Naval Weapons Facility or Station for disposal! and by the way Samuel I was trained to handle and deal with ordnance by the friggin United States Navy, all of the rules they use and employ in as least as far as weapons stowage and use are written in blood! Smokless powder, explosives of all types, pyrotechnics, and smoke generating devices all ALL degrade and become dangerous and unstable when exposed to long term extreme temperatures(and that means several different things depending upon the ordnance involved) I was responsible for such inspections and either did them my self or directed subordinates to do them for over 20 years. Now if their be any other old retired sailors here perhaps they can enlighten you as well as to what reports were required to be delivered to the Commanding Officer at 12 O'Clock Reports! Additionally I did those inspections both ashore and afloat as required by United States Navy Regulation, and the U.S.Army, USMC and USAF ALL have similiar regulations! If I come off as perturbed perhaps I am but I am not angry at you specifically Sam the rules and procedures we had are there for a reason a well documented one and I KNOW from PERSONAL experience what ignoring safe, vigilant stowage of ammunition can cause. I don't got alot of friends and if I can prevent even one of them from being injured or killed by doing something unsafe I intend to do so. Sorry if I came off a little harsh Sam But I know and knew my job and duty and I was and AM very very good at it.

[Mooseman684]

You think you got extremes...Most of my ammo is frozen right now...-40. What I noticed is if it is in sealed ammo cans, it forms a Vacuum when the temp drops. I let it thaw normally as the temps rise for summer...If I bring it inside frozen, it will frost up which is drawing moisture. I can leave the cans sealed and let it thaw completely before opening and it is Fine... I Inspect only when it is Hot and dry outside, so as to not let moist air in the cans before re-sealing them for long term storage...The only ammo I have had go bad was Factory Remington Old RN 180Corelokts.
The primers died...reason unknown...
Rich

[samuel]

From the wikipedia free encyclopedia:To prevent buildup of the deterioration products,stabilizers are added.2-Nitrodiphenylamine is one of the most common stabilizers used. The whole article is there if you wish to read it. sam.

Just read your post MM and primers arent gunpowder.They are made up of about 7 chemicals that are kept secret by all companies.I can understand how they might go bad.I have had Remington primers fail and they werent from Alaska. ezearln:you have a lot of friends on the forum and I am one of them.I know all active military magazines are checked rigorusly.That wasnt my point.What I was saying is Billys and thousands of other little private magazines dont take that kind of oversite.As MM and I have stated we have stored ammo with no oversite beyond a periotic check.I have some stored over 20yrs in an old refrigerator and it works just fine. sam.

[ezearln]

Oh for heavens sake Samuel, the reason ANY military organization does anything is because of a history, because of experience, because of death. The rules and regulations exist because there is a DANGER and the military investigates , researches and regulates accordingly. and then writes new regulations to preven whatever tradgedy occured from ever happening again. The Military wastes little time on anything deemed ineffectual or unimportant as it takes away from critical mission support. I don't care if you use sta-bil in you dadburn gun powder, propellants and explosives are created using HEAT and PRESSURE therefore heat and pressure WILL affect them! Propellents will separate and degrade under high temperature, a prime example of that is TNT which sweats nitroglycerine when exposed to high heat, the nitro becomming ever more unstable as it is exposed to increasing heat! This is to all intents an dpurposes basic chemistry, the same effect can be seen in modern propellants . This isn't a debate about what may or maynot happen but what WILL happen if proper attention to appropriate stowage isn't observed. Samuel you sir may do as you wish I know what I was trained and educated to do and observe, but I pray with all my heart no harm ever comes to you because of it.

[ArkansasHunter]

BILLY DID YOU HERE THAT ??? Get you a couple of non working freezer and put them in your shed to keep all your ammo in.
When I was a welder the company I worked for used wornout upright refrigerators to keep welding rods in.
Put a light bulb in the fridge and you'll be good to go. Thank Samuel ...A.H

[samuel]

Ezearln:Thank you and GOD bless you. AH:Almost made it to bed and thought of what you posted.Since he doesnt have electricity,I would rather put (as you would probably say) that moisture drawing stuff in than light bulbs.Just funnin with you. sam.

[Philip]

i like the fridge idea. i bet you could find an old junk one for cheap at a junkyard or something, and just duct tape the sucker shut, it shouldnt get too bad in there.

[lefty o]

i have to agree with ezearln on all this. i used to work on the alarm sytems that monitored magazine temps. when those alarms went off, action was taken immediately. moisture and temperature are the biggest concerns with storing ammunition.