[Seabeescotty]

I remember the incident, green ARNG troops led by a green officer, who thought he heard a shot fired at them, and ordered them to fire back. Fear and inexperience caused a horrible tragedy, though it was never confirmed or disproved that some zealot had fired a round at them. Happened a long time ago, and really has nothing to do with anything, except as an example to show why you NEVER send a green officer in harm's way in command of green troops.

[Wingwiper]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

I remember the incident, green ARNG troops led by a green officer, who thought he heard a shot fired at them, and ordered them to fire back. Fear and inexperience caused a horrible tragedy, though it was never confirmed or disproved that some zealot had fired a round at them. Happened a long time ago, and really has nothing to do with anything, except as an example to show why you NEVER send a green officer in harm's way in command of green troops.

EXCELLENT EXAMPLE

The Investigations after, led to what many of us beleived were the fault in the begining. It was well documented that there were two possibly RUSSIAN whatevers dressed in U.S. Army Officer Uniforms, walking thru the dorms and trying to incite hysteria and anger. I had taken RIOT control and Kent State was our reference for it was stil very fresh in our minds. Riots are started by INSTIGATORS who get the mob moving. Our job was to break the mob in little groups, seperate them into even smaller groups and then hopefully when real small the desire fades. We were also under LAWFUL orders to shoot to kill anyone that seems to be an INSTIGATOR. Because this is NOT a PEACEFUL ASSEMBLY. This was the Military and the Police. That is Military under orders to use force against the American Public. Yes! under strict conditions such as a riot where Lives and property are at stake. Who is to say how the military will be sold on the idea to confiscate firearms form the citizens??
Look at Morton Grove Ill, Look at England and Australia.
What we and others need to do is to EDUCATE the public and the leaders elected to office that if the Peope were allowed to Carry, and were allowed to defend themselves as OFF duty Poilce are allowed to do, then crime would decrease and there would not be so many who would choose to use a firearm against a defenseless public. Honest people abide by laws and No Tresspassing signs, people with a criminal intent could care less about laws or signs. Now increase the odds that the criminal would probably end up DEAD or with a BIG hole in him by a citizen and his choices in life may be different.
Will the military disarm the U.S. Public? Who knows, but if it is presented in such a way to sell the young and influential minds, who knows for sure. Ruby Ridge and Waco were ATF but there are tons of ATF stories out there.

[mym1a]

Quote:       Originally Posted by HippyInASuit

Have you heard of Ron Paul? He is a libertarian conservative supporter of the Constitution (including the 2nd amendment) and his 10 term voting record in the House is bulletproof, so to speak.

yes I have heard of him and agree with him in many ways, however, as right at he maybe the majority of our population will not, can not believe in what he says,he wants to do away with the central banking system, he also believes that federal taxes are illegal.I happen to agree with him however, just because i like him as a candidate doesn't mean he is electable????

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

I remember Kent State. Your point?

unless my memory is wrong that was a national guard unit under the authority of that states governor? had nothing to do with regular army

[Cyrano]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

I remember the incident, green ARNG troops led by a green officer, who thought he heard a shot fired at them, and ordered them to fire back. Fear and inexperience caused a horrible tragedy, though it was never confirmed or disproved that some zealot had fired a round at them. Happened a long time ago, and really has nothing to do with anything, except as an example to show why you NEVER send a green officer in harm's way in command of green troops.

Read James Michener's book on Kent State, if you can find it. He does for the Kent State Incident what Jim Bishop did for the JFK assasination, a minute-by-minute breakdown of who did what, when, where and to whom.

I always felt one of the supreme ironies of the day was that one of the four who were killed, William Schroeder, was a member of the Kent State ROTC unit and was just passing through the area; he wasn't involved in the protest at all.

The only good to come out of that tragedy was the Army seriously reviewing and changing its procedures for handling riots. They actually institutied training for that scenario and procured nonlethal weapons for use in riot control. The techniques the Army developed are now used worldwide.

Bayonets and .30-06 rounds aren't what you want to be using to break up a riot. America isn't the Peoples Republic of China.

[Wingwiper]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Cyrano

Read James Michener's book on Kent State, if you can find it. He does for the Kent State Incident what Jim Bishop did for the JFK assasination, a minute-by-minute breakdown of who did what, when, where and to whom. I always felt one of the supreme ironies of the day was that one of the four who were killed, William Schroeder, was a member of the Kent State ROTC unit and was just passing through the area; he wasn't involved in the protest at all. The only good to come out of that tragedy was the Army seriously reviewing and changing its procedures for handling riots. They actually institutied training for that scenario and procured nonlethal weapons for use in riot control. The techniques the Army developed are now used worldwide. Bayonets and .30-06 rounds aren't what you want to be using to break up a riot. America isn't the Peoples Republic of China.

I was in the Marines in the late 60s and mid 70s and I was trained for riots. We had 3 foot riot sticks which were much like the regular night stick but longer.
One demostration we had was at Kaneohe MCAS and Nixon had just come back from China and was staying at the CGs house on base. There was a long road leading to the base with Ocean on both sides. I had Main Gate Duty that day and at the gate was over 500 demostrators. There was the S.D.S. Liberated Barracks and another group (forgot their name) in the parking lot behind the Vistors hut was a cattle car and every 500 meters up the road was a six by with a squad of Marines in each. The cattle car had a many Marines riot equipped and ready for a fight. The first 6 by had a squad with riot gear, the next 6 by up, had a mounted M60 and a squad with M16s and fix bayonets and each truck after was the same as that one. The first two barriers were to beat them and after that it was to take names. When the SHTF they never made it pass the first 6 by and we took about 50 prisoners all with some major hurts. Their intent was to storm the base en masse and then capture the CGs house and Nixon, for whatever reasons. I lost a front tooth and have a scar on my cheek still.
If the riots ever broke out such as Haight Ashbury or Kent or others, we had several of our guys trained to and armed to take out any instigators. "Take out" was a term for KILL and SILENCE. In our training we were shown films where in riots such as Europe etc, many Instigators would get on roof tops and take pot shots at the crowd to make the crowd think it was the enforcement attacking them, that would instigate the fervor of the riots even more and more people would suffer. Our mission was to take out instigators and break up the riots ASAP. Kent State was without question, Instigated and the undisciplined characteristics pof the THEN National Guard caused blood shed that didn't need to be spread. Two of the students killed had been throwing rocks and one still had a rock in his hand. It was starting to boil and who ever took the starting shot which to this day has been proven NOT to have come from any National Guardsman, took that shot with full knowledge of the outcome.

[Seabeescotty]

An SFC I knew very well in California was on the riot line at Berkely as a PFC, in 1968. They didn't have much riot training, but had been told not to get pulled into the crowd. The man next to him had the strap of his baton around his wrist, and when he lunged, two rioters grabbed the baton and pulled him out of the line. All the rest could do was close ranks and keep the riot from spreading. eight hours later, they found the body of that young man, who had been shot in the head and stomped into jelly. Those folks weren't lawabiding citizens, they were criminals who needed to be stopped. The investigators came to the conclusion that this riot had also been agitated by soviet instigators.

[mym1a]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

An SFC I knew very well in California was on the riot line at Berkely as a PFC, in 1968. They didn't have much riot training, but had been told not to get pulled into the crowd. The man next to him had the strap of his baton around his wrist, and when he lunged, two rioters grabbed the baton and pulled him out of the line. All the rest could do was close ranks and keep the riot from spreading. eight hours later, they found the body of that young man, who had been shot in the head and stomped into jelly. Those folks weren't lawabiding citizens, they were criminals who needed to be stopped. The investigators came to the conclusion that this riot had also been agitated by soviet instigators.

scary to think some of those protestors/rioters are now wasting space in political office these days! sorry to hear about the young guy who got pulled into the crowed! thats one of the first things they should of taught him!!

[Seabeescotty]

It was a new time, and the police didn't have a chance withou the help of the army. they got a talk on what to do, and were sent in harm's way on their own streets. After that, the folks in charge ordered a special shotgun for those situations, that would keep the rioters at arms length or more. I trained with them in the reserves, they were over six feet long with the bayonet attached. The damn things looked like civil war arms, except they were pump shotguns. Some of the older guys on here may have trained with them also. We were taught to use less than lethal force, using the bayonets to keep the rioters 3 to 4 feet from our lines. After all that training, we were never needed, I'm happy to say. But that's a whole different scenario than what this thread is about!

[mym1a]

Boomers!!!!!!with the exception of those who served most boomers have had a pretty good life, they grew up in time when the country was rather simple , innocent and prosperous, had freedoms that their children will never experience! and yet many of them are in office and the first to deny others there freedom, just seems kinda funny,with the greatest generation,now comes the boomers, many born of privalge denying others the rights our forefather fought and died for!!!!!!!

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Wingwiper

EXCELLENT EXAMPLE The Investigations after, led to what many of us beleived were the fault in the begining. It was well documented that there were two possibly RUSSIAN whatevers dressed in U.S. Army Officer Uniforms, walking thru the dorms and trying to incite hysteria and anger. I had taken RIOT control and Kent State was our reference for it was stil very fresh in our minds. Riots are started by INSTIGATORS who get the mob moving. Our job was to break the mob in little groups, seperate them into even smaller groups and then hopefully when real small the desire fades. We were also under LAWFUL orders to shoot to kill anyone that seems to be an INSTIGATOR. Because this is NOT a PEACEFUL ASSEMBLY. This was the Military and the Police. That is Military under orders to use force against the American Public. Yes! under strict conditions such as a riot where Lives and property are at stake. Who is to say how the military will be sold on the idea to confiscate firearms form the citizens?? Look at Morton Grove Ill, Look at England and Australia. What we and others need to do is to EDUCATE the public and the leaders elected to office that if the Peope were allowed to Carry, and were allowed to defend themselves as OFF duty Poilce are allowed to do, then crime would decrease and there would not be so many who would choose to use a firearm against a defenseless public. Honest people abide by laws and No Tresspassing signs, people with a criminal intent could care less about laws or signs. Now increase the odds that the criminal would probably end up DEAD or with a BIG hole in him by a citizen and his choices in life may be different. Will the military disarm the U.S. Public? Who knows, but if it is presented in such a way to sell the young and influential minds, who knows for sure. Ruby Ridge and Waco were ATF but there are tons of ATF stories out there.

Two "possibly Russians" walking thru the dorms inciting anger and hysteria? "Well-documented" by whom, exactly?

I think you have a tear in your tinfoil hat, Wingwiper; time to add another layer. One can't be too careful these days, given the suspected capabilities of the latest CIA and NSA hardware. And Heaven knows what the UN blue helmets have in their arsenal these days. I saw a formation of black helicopters around sunset just last night, you know, and they were headed east, in your direction.

It isn't going to help your case if you come back all huffy insisting you aren't a conspiracy buff, then sidetrack onto the JFK assassination again, like you did last time...

[ezearln]

Silly as it sounds Troy , my friend we often have UNMARKED black helicopters wandering about the canyons and washouts here in the Hill Country now I will admit upon observation I believe these are DEA aircraft thermally searching for illicit drug making or growing operations. That doesn't mean I am any more comfortable with from normal observation BLACK high dollar/performance aircraft wandering my skies at uncomfortably low altitudes yet it does happen.

[mym1a]

the dea ? if their so worried about drugs why don't they do something with the border,?I guess a certain level of crime maintains job security and ability to purchase high tech toys, good for the economy??? no crime no need for such a large police force? like an old timer I use work construction with use to tell me: damn son slow down! your going to work us out of a job!!!!

[ezearln]

Actually mym1a Illicit drug use production and proliferation has become a primary concern within and without the urban communities. Imagine the devastation if you can of a Texas Hill Country Meth lab suddenly detonating and setting the surrounding areas on fire! Not only may you have the toxic/flammable chemicals involved in the drugs manufacture but NOW you have the raging wildfire threatening the property of others who had no idea what was going on.. Simply trying to preserve their livlihood!
As far as the border goes my friend don't believe everything the news feeds to you. There are an awful lot of dedicated, seasoned professionals out there trying hard to make a difference!

[Rave]

[quote=mym1a;421487]yes I have heard of him and agree with him in many ways, however, as right at he maybe the majority of our population will not, can not believe in what he says,he wants to do away with the central banking system, he also believes that federal taxes are illegal.I happen to agree with him however, just because i like him as a candidate doesn't mean he is electable????
If enough people felt differently than you he would be,unfortunitly most folks just don't seem to be able to get it together.
Oh well,it's a moot point now.

Quote:       Originally Posted by mym1a

the dea ? if their so worried about drugs why don't they do something with the border,?I guess a certain level of crime maintains job security and ability to purchase high tech toys, good for the economy??? no crime no need for such a large police force? like an old timer I use work construction with use to tell me: damn son slow down! your going to work us out of a job!!!!

You really hit the nail on the head with that one! Good shot!