Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

[neophyte]

Seebee: Sir; in places you wouldn't begin to imagine. We had some in Italy; France, and place I cannot remember. Russia had them scattered much like and guessed there version of the ICBM's
Strategically aimed at Large cities, cannot remember but Chicago; was set to dismantle world wide communications. At the time Chicago was the center.

China: Scary part; we are told that we knew more about the bottom of the ocean. Satalite countries have had some of the Americas stuff along with Russia.

ezelran: Sir; you are much to correct.
Some of the stuff was organic based leaving a trail unknown. Long term affect could not be reproduced. called it "subjective annalists" with overriding acceptability casualty loss.

Never mentioned losing animals, plant water; you get the picture: With proper clean-up how were they supposed to take care of my concerns. {plant, animal, water and it goes on}
Mine was called "disruption of the eco system" and where did it lead.

That was part of the article that got me my promotion in the Star's and Stripes. sarcasm of course.
For clairifcation: I was not a writer for the Star's and Stripes. Just wrote some 'crap'

[ezearln]

neophyte another excellent question! Granted there would be significant plant and animal life lost in addition to human life. But one phenomena (Not taught at NBC) that was proposed as migitating the die off of these life forms was and is Natural/climatic/Biological Migration.
Due to the relatively short term effects of a neutron device, Mother Nature would and does tend to fill in the blanks as it were. A phenomena we are all too familiar with here in the Texas Hill Country!

Some points to clarify, any body of water whether it is a river, creek, marsh, swamp or lake would cleanse itself (as long as there is in and out flow of water) of contamination fairly quickly. Also plant and animal life would move into these areas due to migration either through range expansion that occurs in many species or by being carried into the area by climatic or biological forces.

Two examples:

Forty or so years ago two species were transplanted by a hurricane into the Texas Hill Country that hadn't been native to the area. One was the cedar waxwing (bird) and the Mountain Cedar (an extremely invasive tree) The mountain cedar has quite literally occupied every available spot it could find and is so fast growing it often chokes out valuable trees and brush native to the area (Oaks, Madrona, Pecan, mesquite)as well as being insanely flammable!. The cedar Waxwing eats the berries of the Mountain Cedar, passing undigested seeds through it's bowel spreading the tree.

and

You're a rancher, you build a stock tank (in Texas that's what we calls what most folks call a stock pond) the tank is built in a place intended to divert runoff into it to fill it. The tank isn't fed by any other source such as a spring or creek. But as long as regular rains fall it remains at a fairly regular level. Before long you find you have frogs, tadpoles, fish, turtles and aquatic plants in that tank. Now where'd they come from?? The answer is fairly simple "Migratory and ranging waterfowl" when these wading and paddling critters forage it isn't unusual for them to incidentally pick up the eggs of these critters and carry them to the next body of water on their legs or feet spreading the species into new areas. Turtles will migrate long distances to new water sources.

In essence after a fairly short period of time plant and animal life would begin to re-establish itself in the affected areas.

[KGunner]

I've kind of lost track of where this topic is, but Chernobyl has all but recovered and is accepting all life forms back. Animals thrive in that area like they never have before. When it comes down to it, nature will outlast man in any situation.

[ezearln]

Chernobyl has recovered because of extreme decontamination of the area by the former Soviet government, and much of the radiation leaked was in the form of radioactive steam, while there was alot of ground contamination of topsoil and material, that was removed mechanically and buried along with the reactors rubble under several thousand tons of concrete. An important note to your Chernobyl comment is many of the workers who accomplished the work did so WITHOUT full protective equipment and now suffer severe health problems.

[OldTimer]

This is a rather sobering thread for somebody who has never been "owned" by our Uncle. Shouldn't this be in the "when the SHTF" forum?

From my uninformed position, and FWIW not worth the quality of the paper it's printed on (YMMV)...

Originally Posted by neophyte

ezearln: With any nuclear weapon that would...cause 100yrs of desolation; what the dickens are empty building, lakes, river, ditches, mountain worth?
Having gone to school for some of this 'ingenuity' I asked this question a long time ago...[i]t do make a difference

And just what difference do it make?

Originally Posted by ezearln

His name is pronounced ACK-LA-May-OFF at one time the senior Soviet Naval Officer within the Soviet Navy..."The issue of greatest concern to us, is not your ships or planes, bombs or missiles. But rather the dedication, expertise and professionalism of the very young soldiers and sailors who maintain these in the service of your country, and the fact that were we to come to war we would face a foe of 150 million angry American citizens rising in defense of your nation."

Originally Posted by ezearln

While a neutron device isn't completely "Clean" as some would have you believe the residual radioactive elements are of such small quantity and intensity that decontamination can be relatively easy to accomplish. Additionally the fallout contamination of a neutron device isn't measured in decades or years. Depending on the exact fissonable material used in the particular device the radioactive halflife of the contamination can be measured in months sometimes mere days.

A land of trains, planes and automobiles: $ [fill in the blank].
And full of people willing and able to defend these: $$$ [fill in the blank].
Removing the people: PRICELESS.

[neophyte]

OldTimer: Sir; I musta missed something in your thoughts.

quote: "and just what difference do it make?"

Sir; as much as 'I' care for the people; I care for the world. Loosing any and all parts. Sir; I find it disturbing.
God created the heavens and earth; Man has no right to destroy this creation.
We are the caretakers; not owners.

[Seabeescotty]

Our scientists are really good at devising new ways to decimate their fellow man, aren't they? Give 'em a problem, like how to get rid of the eople without destroying the land, and there it is! If war was a bit scarier, I think we would see less conflicts. Except for the radicals who are willing to die for their religion.

[OldTimer]

Neophyte:
My response, obtuse as it is, was in response to Eazearlin's post (first quoted), to wit (and to paraphrase): why on God's green earth would anyone want what's left after armageddon, i.e.: "100 years of desolation".
I admit I'm not informed, to my thinking Neutron devices make the difference and virtually allow the "victor" to march right in and set up shop in a new land, devoid of enemy combatants and an insurgent populace (no rifle behind every blade of grass), with infrastructure intact. IMHO, rather more attractive to a foe who fears the opponent's personnel as opposed to their hardware and technology.
And I fully agree with you, however great or small the event, the thought of a nuclear incident, thermo or neutron or "dirty", disturbs me greatly.
Member of the If Ignorance is Bliss, Why am I Troubled Mess...

[ezearln]

Oldtimer the quote you are attributing to me was actually made by neophyte, however as dastardly and heartless as neutron devices may be. It's important that you realize that they still must be delivered upon their targets and in doing so our adversaries risked detection and the promised reprisal likely under the M.A.D. doctrine (Mutually Assured Destruction) This basically insane but understandable doctrine held that were the former Soviet Union, or China ever foolishly to decide to initiate a first strike upon the United States or her allies (Including NATO) they would be the unhappy recipient of every ICBM we possessed pre-targeted upon them in a retalitory strike. It is also important to point out the United States stategy called Trident.
Meaning 24/7 365 there was a Trident of launch platforms/facilities manned and ready to release nuclear anihalation upon our enemies. These included land based ICBM launch sites, B-52 Super Stratofortress Bombers (on continuous overlapping patrol) as well as the most advanced nuclear Ballistic Submarines ever to exist on the earth laying often within shouting distance of our enemies shores, this not taking into account the dozens of carrier launched nuclear strike aircraft that can be employed as well.
Our enemies were as aware of the precision, reliability and lethality of our ICBM's and MIRV's as we were aware of the short commings, failures and shoddy maintenance of theirs. In essence it means that even were our enemy to destroy all the B-52's they still had the Land based ICBM's now inbound, as well as the submarine lauched ICBM's seconds from their targets. Mix them about in any way you choose but in all scenarios the result is you have a massive retalitory strike inbound that you aren't going to survive.
This is in many ways why the cold war never went hot, why both the former Soviet Union and communist China continually chose to not challenge the United States in a direct confrontation, but repeatedly challenged our resolve, technology, and skill through third nation wars. A little thought will bring several to mind.