Results of study military paid for sez...

Rave · 02-12-2008, 11:18 AM

In the Iraq situation the troops there are,at best,inefective,at worse,counterproductive.

lefty o · 02-12-2008, 11:21 AM

ive talked to enough returning vets, and thats not what ive heard.

Bravo · 02-12-2008, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty o

ive talked to enough returning vets, and thats not what ive heard.

In all fairness to them, would you expect them to say otherwise?

lefty o · 02-12-2008, 12:07 PM

yes, if they thought otherwise, i would expect their honest answer.

KGunner · 02-12-2008, 12:27 PM

Well then pull them out and see just how "counterproductive" they were when that country spirals into anarchy, the likes of which have never been seen in that region. If we pull out now, we will be back there in less than a decade.

lefty o · 02-12-2008, 12:34 PM

to be more specific on getting an honest answer. they dont want to be there anymore than you want them to be there. if they didnt believe they were doing some good, i can almost guarantee they would have said so. whats ineffective in iraq is both their politics, and our politics.

Rave · 02-12-2008, 01:10 PM

lefty o,I say this with all due respect.
Were you around during the 15 years of Viet Nam?
Do you remember "The hearts and minds"
Do you remember the "Domino effect?"
Did you know that our troops are told what to say for security reasons?
Do you believe a good troop follows direction/orders in what he/she says and does?
Did you know that most of their time is spent trying to make sure they and their buddies stay alive?
Do you really believe that after staying alive they are aware of everything that is going on here and there?
Are you aware that after we left Viet Nam and the dust settled they became a productive nation and are now a major exporter to the U.S.?
Are you aware of all the different reasons we have now gotten for the invasion/occupation of Iraq?
If you can say yes to all of the above you know a hell of a lot more than anyone else,or admits to knowing.

lefty o · 02-12-2008, 01:46 PM

i cant say yes to everything, but everything you mention isnt legit. as a vet, that held security clearances, i will tell you for a fact that troops are not forced to say things that are untrue. if its a sensitive issue, nothing is said. tell me some others lies that i should blindly believe. i dont care what your stand on the war is, but dont lie to me to make your version seem correct.

im quite certain that there are current iraq vets that dont believe in whats happening. there are definately more than just one or two sides to this. just dont try to BS me, as im neither dumb or ignorant.

Windwalker · 02-12-2008, 02:09 PM

The biggest problem in Iraq is politicians dictating the military programs, both their politicians and our politicians. Put a General with wartime experience in Nam and both Iraq wars in complete charge of all incountry forces. Allow him to decide how the forces should be deployed. Let him decide who or what should be bombed, who or what should be attacked, and what areas should be under martial law. In these areas, anyone not in uniform having a gun or explosive device should be immediately shot. This is war. Let the Military run it. After peace is declared, then the politicians can run the country.

The_Patriot · 02-12-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rave

In the Iraq situation the troops there are,at best,inefective,at worse,counterproductive.

No offense, Rave, but what the heck are you even talking about? That's one heck of an inflamatory statement without any kind of citation or reference. Was that what it was meant for? Just to inflame?

lefty o · 02-12-2008, 02:31 PM

he doesnt know. he's kinda like the anti gun crowd. so set in having his beliefs percieved as truth by everybody else that he'll twist and turn anything so that it supports his beliefs.

KGunner · 02-12-2008, 03:16 PM

Windwalker...wonderful statement and dead on. If you look at every war this country has been in since WWII it has ended without a victory. Why? We stopped listening to generals in Korea. MacArthur was relieved by Truman for wanting to FIGHT the N. Koreans and end the war, apparently Truman who had no experience fighting any enemies knew better than he did. Same thing happened in Vietnam, we didn't listen to who was there, to who was fighting. Iraq is no different, the only glimmer of hope was Bush giving Petraus his troop surge. Other than that politicians think they know better than generals, and that is absolute bullshit.

troy2000 · 02-12-2008, 10:56 PM

I'd say deciding what we're trying to accomplish in a war is the job of civilian leadership, not the military. But once the objectives are made clear, the generals and admirals should be given a pretty free hand on how to achieve those objectives.

In this particular war the civilians not only made the decision to start it, but did so with no clearly defined objectives to begin with. Then they ignored the professionals on the proper way to go about an invasion.

Seabeescotty · 02-13-2008, 05:41 AM

Comparing Nam to Iraq is like comparing apples to kumquats. Ho Chi Minh came to us for help against the French colonials, but we sided with our illustrious allies from WW2 instead. We should have gone in on Ho's side and kicked the French out, because they were doing crap to the Vietnamese that the Germans had done to them. The Vietnamese got over our mistake, and like us. But the French still have no use for us, even after we saved them twice in the last century. I fought the North Vietnamese, but trust them more than I ever trusted France. Iraq, on the other hand, was run by a bloody butcher who would do anything possible to harm the U.S. He didn't play by the rules set before him, and got taken out. I'd much rather we fight suicidal fanatics there, than in our own streets. And my kids don't go around trying to blow smoke up my a$$! They're not brainwashed robots, they are professional American Soldiers! They have told me that if the pols would keep their noses out, the job could be finished, but apparently someone is making money! Now that sounds familiar!

Rave · 02-13-2008, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Patriot

No offense, Rave, but what the heck are you even talking about? That's one heck of an inflamatory statement without any kind of citation or reference. Was that what it was meant for? Just to inflame?

It was on Fox News yesterday.
Of course I don't know if it is true or not,and yes it is inflamitory.
It rocks the boat,it promotes thought and dialog,although some don't tolerate waves very well,they are still out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty o

he doesnt know. he's kinda like the anti gun crowd. so set in having his beliefs percieved as truth by everybody else that he'll twist and turn anything so that it supports his beliefs.

Well,I did say with all due respect.
Those that give none deserve none,however I will continue to respect you're opinions.
I kinda think that is what forums are about?

lefty o · 02-13-2008, 11:18 AM

i dont have a problem with your opinions rave( your free to whatever opinion you want), but i dont have any respect when you twist facts or lie.

Rave · 02-13-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty o

i dont have a problem with your opinions rave( your free to whatever opinion you want), but i dont have any respect when you twist facts or lie.

OK I will limit my posting in the future.
My quoteing articles or my complaining won't make a difference any way.

lefty o · 02-13-2008, 12:22 PM

its not your quoting, or complaining, its lying to make your perspective seem correct. "do you know our troops are told what to say", BS- do i have to keep going?! im a VET, and there are a lot of other VETS on this board, who know better. we acutally understand how the military works, because we experienced it, not because someone like you , or the media said "did you know"! if you want to post something, be truthfull, dont make crap up- i hate a liar!

Chris · 02-13-2008, 12:22 PM

This isn't a political forum

02-12-2008, 11:18 AM	#1
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 6,875	Results of study military paid for sez... In the Iraq situation the troops there are,at best,inefective,at worse,counterproductive. __________________ USAF '62-'66 .

02-12-2008, 01:10 PM	#7
Rave Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tampa Posts: 6,875	lefty o,I say this with all due respect. Were you around during the 15 years of Viet Nam? Do you remember "The hearts and minds" Do you remember the "Domino effect?" Did you know that our troops are told what to say for security reasons? Do you believe a good troop follows direction/orders in what he/she says and does? Did you know that most of their time is spent trying to make sure they and their buddies stay alive? Do you really believe that after staying alive they are aware of everything that is going on here and there? Are you aware that after we left Viet Nam and the dust settled they became a productive nation and are now a major exporter to the U.S.? Are you aware of all the different reasons we have now gotten for the invasion/occupation of Iraq? If you can say yes to all of the above you know a hell of a lot more than anyone else,or admits to knowing. __________________ USAF '62-'66 .

02-12-2008, 02:09 PM	#9
Windwalker Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 3,585	The biggest problem in Iraq is politicians dictating the military programs, both their politicians and our politicians. Put a General with wartime experience in Nam and both Iraq wars in complete charge of all incountry forces. Allow him to decide how the forces should be deployed. Let him decide who or what should be bombed, who or what should be attacked, and what areas should be under martial law. In these areas, anyone not in uniform having a gun or explosive device should be immediately shot. This is war. Let the Military run it. After peace is declared, then the politicians can run the country. __________________ America: Love it and protect it or leave it

02-12-2008, 10:56 PM	#13
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 9,459 Images: 9	I'd say deciding what we're trying to accomplish in a war is the job of civilian leadership, not the military. But once the objectives are made clear, the generals and admirals should be given a pretty free hand on how to achieve those objectives. In this particular war the civilians not only made the decision to start it, but did so with no clearly defined objectives to begin with. Then they ignored the professionals on the proper way to go about an invasion. __________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France

02-13-2008, 05:41 AM	#14
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 4,048 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	Comparing Nam to Iraq is like comparing apples to kumquats. Ho Chi Minh came to us for help against the French colonials, but we sided with our illustrious allies from WW2 instead. We should have gone in on Ho's side and kicked the French out, because they were doing crap to the Vietnamese that the Germans had done to them. The Vietnamese got over our mistake, and like us. But the French still have no use for us, even after we saved them twice in the last century. I fought the North Vietnamese, but trust them more than I ever trusted France. Iraq, on the other hand, was run by a bloody butcher who would do anything possible to harm the U.S. He didn't play by the rules set before him, and got taken out. I'd much rather we fight suicidal fanatics there, than in our own streets. And my kids don't go around trying to blow smoke up my a$$! They're not brainwashed robots, they are professional American Soldiers! They have told me that if the pols would keep their noses out, the job could be finished, but apparently someone is making money! Now that sounds familiar! __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

02-12-2008, 11:21 AM	#2
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,806	ive talked to enough returning vets, and thats not what ive heard.

02-12-2008, 12:07 PM	#4
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,806	yes, if they thought otherwise, i would expect their honest answer.

02-12-2008, 12:27 PM	#5
KGunner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 432	Well then pull them out and see just how "counterproductive" they were when that country spirals into anarchy, the likes of which have never been seen in that region. If we pull out now, we will be back there in less than a decade.

02-12-2008, 12:34 PM	#6
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,806	to be more specific on getting an honest answer. they dont want to be there anymore than you want them to be there. if they didnt believe they were doing some good, i can almost guarantee they would have said so. whats ineffective in iraq is both their politics, and our politics.

02-12-2008, 01:46 PM	#8
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,806	i cant say yes to everything, but everything you mention isnt legit. as a vet, that held security clearances, i will tell you for a fact that troops are not forced to say things that are untrue. if its a sensitive issue, nothing is said. tell me some others lies that i should blindly believe. i dont care what your stand on the war is, but dont lie to me to make your version seem correct. im quite certain that there are current iraq vets that dont believe in whats happening. there are definately more than just one or two sides to this. just dont try to BS me, as im neither dumb or ignorant.

02-12-2008, 02:31 PM	#11
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,806	he doesnt know. he's kinda like the anti gun crowd. so set in having his beliefs percieved as truth by everybody else that he'll twist and turn anything so that it supports his beliefs.

02-12-2008, 03:16 PM	#12
KGunner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Fort Collins, CO Posts: 432	Windwalker...wonderful statement and dead on. If you look at every war this country has been in since WWII it has ended without a victory. Why? We stopped listening to generals in Korea. MacArthur was relieved by Truman for wanting to FIGHT the N. Koreans and end the war, apparently Truman who had no experience fighting any enemies knew better than he did. Same thing happened in Vietnam, we didn't listen to who was there, to who was fighting. Iraq is no different, the only glimmer of hope was Bush giving Petraus his troop surge. Other than that politicians think they know better than generals, and that is absolute bullshit.

02-13-2008, 11:18 AM	#16
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,806	i dont have a problem with your opinions rave( your free to whatever opinion you want), but i dont have any respect when you twist facts or lie.

02-13-2008, 12:22 PM	#18
lefty o Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: mn Posts: 4,806	its not your quoting, or complaining, its lying to make your perspective seem correct. "do you know our troops are told what to say", BS- do i have to keep going?! im a VET, and there are a lot of other VETS on this board, who know better. we acutally understand how the military works, because we experienced it, not because someone like you , or the media said "did you know"! if you want to post something, be truthfull, dont make crap up- i hate a liar!

02-13-2008, 12:22 PM	#19
Chris HMFIC Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,834,167 Images: 19 Blog Entries: 18	This isn't a political forum __________________ Rules \| Contributing Members No one has the right to deny my personal safety Please be descriptive in your thread titles!