Diesel quality

irish murphy · 02-12-2008, 01:41 PM

In the last 10 years the use of low sulphar diesel has given owners of older trucks a kick in the nuts.The newer fuel making seals and o rings leak in injector pumps.With the new trucks coming out with common rail engines diesel quality is up on the discussion board again.The common rail system doesnt like any water in it.A number of service staions have been closed down for diesel pumping because of bad quality.Have you noticed this ?

wunhunglo · 02-12-2008, 02:35 PM

Quick answer NO. I haven't noticed it.

First I've heard of low sulphur fuels having any effect on seals & O rings.
It is not just the HP common rail systems that don't like water, no diesel likes water, it cuts the pintle holes & wears the needle in the injectors and leads to dribbling & smoking. (although it does tend to clean carbon off the cylinder & combustion chamber)

As for service stations being closed down for supplying poor quality fuel. Good! So they should be!

irish murphy · 02-12-2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wunhunglo

Quick answer NO. I haven't noticed it.

First I've heard of low sulphur fuels having any effect on seals & O rings.
It is not just the HP common rail systems that don't like water, no diesel likes water, it cuts the pintle holes & wears the needle in the injectors and leads to dribbling & smoking. (although it does tend to clean carbon off the cylinder & combustion chamber)

As for service stations being closed down for supplying poor quality fuel. Good! So they should be!

Im no expert on diesels,and what i know is what ive been told by diesel mechanics.I have two nissan patrols.Have been told by a diesel mechanic that my older one(wifes truck) that is a 1989 model is leaking at the pump because the O rings need to be changed.This isnt all the low sulphar diesels fault.All trucks made after 1996 have the propper O rings.My other truck is a 1997 model patrol.The low sulphar diesel chews out the older model O rings quicker.Have also been told that the new common rail engines run fuel pressure that is extremely high.And they need a a lot less water in the system to bugger them that a rotary pump like my truck.

nathangdad · 02-13-2008, 08:23 AM

The newest low sulphur fuel will make millions of diesel engines
obsolete as they cannot function without excessive wear and tear.

Although heavily advertised, the common rail system is not without
critics. As you say, it operates on a fine set of parameters often
difficult with diesel fuel in the real world. Also, questions do exist
if the common rail system will hold up thus giving an expected
large number of trouble free miles.

I would think hard before buying a diesel engine powered pickup.
I have a real feeling they are no longer economically justified in
terms of either initial cost or trouble free performance.
Personally, with the present state of the art I will not purchase
a diesel powered pickup and that does include the Cummins Ram
setup.

damage855 · 02-13-2008, 01:11 PM

I just add a pint of used motor oil at every tank fillup for my 96 dodge cummins no problems the extra oil keeps the seals lubed up.

ouch · 02-13-2008, 01:31 PM

Wow that can get expensive. I have thought about a diesel but am unwilling to put up with cold start shennigans in the winter. I only drive trucks.

mym1a · 02-13-2008, 01:40 PM

mant diesels come with an engine warmer for cold weather, simple heating eliment in the cooling system works well for diesel engines. simply plug into an electrical respticle at the end of use. next moring she should fire up with no problems.

wunhunglo · 02-13-2008, 01:57 PM

[quoteI have thought about a diesel but am unwilling to put up with cold start shennigans in the winter.][/quote]

I've driven diesels for years and no problems with ultra low sulphur fuel in my two HP common rail cars which are both over 4 years old. As for winter starting, same again no problems down to about -8 to -12 which is about as low as it gets most winters where I live. As far as I'm aware most diesels have a heater (glo-plug) which will come on if necessary in cold weather. My current cars (VW & Peugeot) both have them.

mym1a · 02-13-2008, 02:07 PM

yep glow plug most engines come form the factory with that, when i worked a dairy farm tractors didn't have glow plugs or didn't work, in temps well below zero F and if you have access to electric wall respecticles,the easiest thing to do is park the equiptment and pulg it in.

a go plug is a heating or spark eliment that is screwed into the head of the number one cylinder which ignites the compressed fuel in the chamber. the actual heating eliment heats the whole engine by keeping the liquid in the cooling system warm. also need to do a 50x50 mix of diesel fuel and careosen during winter months. which petro companies sell during cold weather months

damage855 · 02-13-2008, 03:57 PM

Never had cold weather issues been in the mountains down to 10 degress before not pluged in and started right up. and the oil is free its what I drained out of the oil pan last oil change. LOL Never had problems with the new fuel but some have so I take a moderate precaution and its a good way to get rid of the old 10W-40.

mym1a · 02-13-2008, 04:15 PM

how about -25

mwlu711 · 02-13-2008, 04:50 PM

the new fuel has a habit of gelling at much higher temps than the old fuel but a good dose of power service every tank will help that.pluging the truck in at night will help it start every time.

jerry · 02-13-2008, 05:15 PM

Soy is killing us here. I don't have a diesel but all my farm buds do. Gelling, filter issues, frequent filter changes to name some issues.

All said, I'm waiting for the 1/2 ton diesel PU's to hit the road.

damage855 · 02-13-2008, 08:21 PM

mym1a dont get that cold in NC but i have read on the truck forum i vist much colder starting with little to no problems. but at that temp gelling is an issue and some additive will need to be used. I often ad a little in the winter just in case but like i saed dont get to cold here in the south.

dhermesc · 02-14-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathangdad

The newest low sulphur fuel will make millions of diesel engines obsolete as they cannot function without excessive wear and tear.
.

Ah, no.

Sulphur is/was a diesel engine lubricant but the biggest drop in sulpher content was in the early 1990's. Until then the sulphur content of diesel fuel was 5000 PPM (or more) then in 1992(? - or so) the EPA mandated a cut of Sulphur to 1/10 the previous levels & S500 or 500 PPM Sulphur content fuel was born. This low Sulphur fuel caused a huge problem with diesel fuel system injection pumps burning out because of loss of the lubricating sulphur. The latest cut from 500 PPM to 15 PPM had really no effect on "lubrication" of the engine valves or fuel pump because at 500PPM there really wasn't much lubricating property there to begin with. The real loss in lubrication occured 16 years ago when diesel fuel lost 4500 PPM sulpher, losing 485 PPM more really had no effect.

The "seal" issue really has nothing to do with sulpher content. The technology required to wash out the Sulphur in the fuel the side effect is it also washes out the aromatic hydrocarbons that keep fuel system seals pliable in some refineries. The change from a higher to a lower aromatics fuel can cause seals to shrink. Aged seals, which do not have the elasticity to adapt to this change, appear to fail sooner. Some of the new S15 fuels are expected to be more susceptible to oxidation. The resulting oxidation products (peroxides) could attack the seal material and cause it to prematurely age.

Since the "new" ULSD has been out since 2006 if your seals haven't failed by now you can expect them the last a normal life span. However it may depend on your fuel supplier. Only some fuel suppliers lowered the aromatics level - others did not. If your current station switches suppliers from one the mixes with high aromatics to one that uses low aromatics then you might suddenly experience seal failure for no apparent reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry

Soy is killing us here. I don't have a diesel but all my farm buds do. Gelling, filter issues, frequent filter changes to name some issues.
All said, I'm waiting for the 1/2 ton diesel PU's to hit the road.

You'll be waiting a long time. The EPA has made sure of that. The little Jeep Liberty was going to be the first of many Dodge smaller vehicles equipped with diesel engines but emission standards were specifically written to kill it in the car and light truck market.

Jeep Liberty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wingwiper · 02-14-2008, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerry

Soy is killing us here. I don't have a diesel but all my farm buds do. Gelling, filter issues, frequent filter changes to name some issues.

All said, I'm waiting for the 1/2 ton diesel PU's to hit the road.

Dodge will have a 1500 Diesel and hybrid in 09, which you shoul dbe able to order in about 3 months.

You are correct about the Liberty, but the Sprinter has a perfect V6 that is what we are guessing is going in the 1500 truck, Liberty was too small.

dhermesc · 02-14-2008, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Dodge will have a 1500 Diesel and hybrid in 09, which you shoul dbe able to order in about 3 months.
You are correct about the Liberty, but the Sprinter has a perfect V6 that is what we are guessing is going in the 1500 truck, Liberty was too small.

Got a link on the 1500 Dodge diesel? Far as I know all the plans for domestic diesels went up in smoke when they passed the new partical emissions regulations last year. Dodge had hoped to sell 8K or 9K of the diesel Liberties every year but actually sold over 11,000 a year and would have sold more had they had the engines to put in them. They had planned for them in 2008 but the government doesn't want Americans driving vehicles that get 30+ MPG unless its the ones they say you should be driving.

The new CAFE regulations has already sent a chill through the domestic automakers. With the passage of the bill BILLIONS of dollars in R&D were flushed down the toilet.

The new "Camaro" was supposed to compete with the high end Mustangs but GM is now talking about making it a economy hybreed instead. Their new RWD Impalas were supposed to go head to head with the Dodge Chargers, they have instead cancelled the car all togather. Dodge is caught in a bind - their newish RWD platform (Charger, 300C) will be dropped as soon as they can get something off the drawing board - they had planned on building them (with periodic updates) for the next ten years but they will need to replace them ASAP (a 21 Century K-Car?). The new Challenger will probably make it into production for a year or two since its already in the pipeline and dealers have taken money as deposits - but they might still abort it before any are built. Ford was so far behind in developing new cars the CAFE rules will not hurt them as much since they had little invested in anything new anyway. Good chance the Mustang will die like it did in 1973 and reappear as a restyled Focus.

Pickups are going to get caught up in the mess too, but just how hard the domestic market is going to take it on the chin has yet to be determined.

Cyrano · 02-14-2008, 04:30 PM

If you are worried about diesel gelling, there are additives you can buy at truckstops to add to your fuel. They generally come in the 1 bottle for 50 gallons of diesel size, so if you have a smaller tank you might need to use only part of a bottle with each fill-up.

02-12-2008, 01:41 PM	#1
irish murphy Banned Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canberra,Australia Posts: 1,028 Blog Entries: 5	Diesel quality In the last 10 years the use of low sulphar diesel has given owners of older trucks a kick in the nuts.The newer fuel making seals and o rings leak in injector pumps.With the new trucks coming out with common rail engines diesel quality is up on the discussion board again.The common rail system doesnt like any water in it.A number of service staions have been closed down for diesel pumping because of bad quality.Have you noticed this ?

02-13-2008, 08:23 AM	#4
nathangdad Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,501	You are so correct . . . . The newest low sulphur fuel will make millions of diesel engines obsolete as they cannot function without excessive wear and tear. Although heavily advertised, the common rail system is not without critics. As you say, it operates on a fine set of parameters often difficult with diesel fuel in the real world. Also, questions do exist if the common rail system will hold up thus giving an expected large number of trouble free miles. I would think hard before buying a diesel engine powered pickup. I have a real feeling they are no longer economically justified in terms of either initial cost or trouble free performance. Personally, with the present state of the art I will not purchase a diesel powered pickup and that does include the Cummins Ram setup.

02-13-2008, 01:11 PM	#5
damage855 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina / Lake Norman Posts: 931 Blog Entries: 1	I just add a pint of used motor oil at every tank fillup for my 96 dodge cummins no problems the extra oil keeps the seals lubed up. __________________ If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?

02-13-2008, 01:31 PM	#6
ouch Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ridgerun, Mo Posts: 184	Wow that can get expensive. I have thought about a diesel but am unwilling to put up with cold start shennigans in the winter. I only drive trucks. __________________ Banned from gunandgame

02-13-2008, 02:07 PM	#9
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	yep glow plug most engines come form the factory with that, when i worked a dairy farm tractors didn't have glow plugs or didn't work, in temps well below zero F and if you have access to electric wall respecticles,the easiest thing to do is park the equiptment and pulg it in. a go plug is a heating or spark eliment that is screwed into the head of the number one cylinder which ignites the compressed fuel in the chamber. the actual heating eliment heats the whole engine by keeping the liquid in the cooling system warm. also need to do a 50x50 mix of diesel fuel and careosen during winter months. which petro companies sell during cold weather months Last edited by mym1a; 02-13-2008 at 02:14 PM.

02-12-2008, 02:35 PM	#2
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 1,659	Quick answer NO. I haven't noticed it. First I've heard of low sulphur fuels having any effect on seals & O rings. It is not just the HP common rail systems that don't like water, no diesel likes water, it cuts the pintle holes & wears the needle in the injectors and leads to dribbling & smoking. (although it does tend to clean carbon off the cylinder & combustion chamber) As for service stations being closed down for supplying poor quality fuel. Good! So they should be!

02-13-2008, 01:40 PM	#7
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	mant diesels come with an engine warmer for cold weather, simple heating eliment in the cooling system works well for diesel engines. simply plug into an electrical respticle at the end of use. next moring she should fire up with no problems.

02-13-2008, 01:57 PM	#8
wunhunglo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: currently "Sunny West Africa" Posts: 1,659	[quoteI have thought about a diesel but am unwilling to put up with cold start shennigans in the winter.][/quote] I've driven diesels for years and no problems with ultra low sulphur fuel in my two HP common rail cars which are both over 4 years old. As for winter starting, same again no problems down to about -8 to -12 which is about as low as it gets most winters where I live. As far as I'm aware most diesels have a heater (glo-plug) which will come on if necessary in cold weather. My current cars (VW & Peugeot) both have them.

02-13-2008, 03:57 PM	#10
damage855 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina / Lake Norman Posts: 931 Blog Entries: 1	Never had cold weather issues been in the mountains down to 10 degress before not pluged in and started right up. and the oil is free its what I drained out of the oil pan last oil change. LOL Never had problems with the new fuel but some have so I take a moderate precaution and its a good way to get rid of the old 10W-40. __________________ If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?

02-13-2008, 04:15 PM	#11
mym1a Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,313	how about -25

02-13-2008, 04:50 PM	#12
mwlu711 Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: north centeral idaho Posts: 40	the new fuel has a habit of gelling at much higher temps than the old fuel but a good dose of power service every tank will help that.pluging the truck in at night will help it start every time.

02-13-2008, 05:15 PM	#13
jerry Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 10,899 Images: 9 Blog Entries: 1	Soy is killing us here. I don't have a diesel but all my farm buds do. Gelling, filter issues, frequent filter changes to name some issues. All said, I'm waiting for the 1/2 ton diesel PU's to hit the road. __________________ I'm a down home back woods redneck

02-13-2008, 08:21 PM	#14
damage855 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Carolina / Lake Norman Posts: 931 Blog Entries: 1	mym1a dont get that cold in NC but i have read on the truck forum i vist much colder starting with little to no problems. but at that temp gelling is an issue and some additive will need to be used. I often ad a little in the winter just in case but like i saed dont get to cold here in the south. __________________ If total goverment control will make us all safer, then why are prisons so dangerous?

02-14-2008, 04:30 PM	#18
Cyrano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York Posts: 2,362	If you are worried about diesel gelling, there are additives you can buy at truckstops to add to your fuel. They generally come in the 1 bottle for 50 gallons of diesel size, so if you have a smaller tank you might need to use only part of a bottle with each fill-up.