[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Nanders

hussein is also a muslim name (which he lied about and tried to pass off as an "african" name, I always felt like a name is something your parents give you and is not something to be so ashamed of to resort to lying about. There are alot of folks out there with Christian names that are not Christian). I realize that he is not muslim. I think that mad hatters point in using mohammed was to emphasize the muslim part of his name for cynical effect (although I am not trying to put words in his mouth) He isnt a baptist, he is a member of the United Church of Christ. The one he belongs to is unashamedly afro-centric. (by their own admission) Yet according to the Scriptures there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free in Christ. We are not to identify ourselves by those types of things under the authority of Christ. Most probably don't care a whole lot about this stuff, but for those that do check out this quote from Barack. "I've always said that my faith informs my values, and in that sense it helps shape my worldview, and I don't think anyone should be required to leave their religious sensibilities at the door," Obama told the paper last week. "But we have to translate those concerns into a universal language that can be subject to argument and doesn't turn into a contest of any one of us thinking that God is somehow on our side." The problem with that last statement, from a Christian perspective is that in order to be a Christian in the first place you must at least belive you are right about things that God has said. Next, a repentant person (required of Christians) must then repent from positions that are "wrong" and then embrace positions on issues which are pleasing to God. If one believes we cannot know "God's side" then why even waste time playing around in Christianity? Christianity makes very blunt claims about the fate of Christians and non-Christians. How can one accept these claims as truth, then turn around and say (in effect) we can't really know where God stands on anything?

In most situations I don't even want to hear where someone believes God stands. Because it always boils down to Him being on their side somehow...

For example, I doubt there's ever been a war between two Christian nations where both sides didn't claim God was on their side. That doesn't have much to do with believing what God said, much less embracing positions that are pleasing to him.

And call me cynical. But in business, when people start dragging God and Jesus into the conversation I want my money up front, because they're probably getting ready to stick it to me in the name of the Lord.

Regarding Obama's name: would you call someone a liar for "trying to pass off John or Peter as American names when they're really Christian names?" Or Maria "as a Spanish name when it's really a Christian name?" Obama's middle name was his father's given name, and his father was from North Africa where it's probably a common one. Don't go making a mountain out of a mole hill; his point was probably that the name doesn't have any heavy religious connotations, any more than the names Peter, Paul and Mary.

As far as his church being Afro-centric, so what? When Dr. Martin Luther King stood up for Negro civil rights, did that make him somehow un-Christian? As long as a group is simply trying to promote the welfare of its own people, as opposed to attacking and tearing down others, I see nothing un-religious about it. Would you be up in arms if it were a Polish-American church or Armenian church instead? I doubt it...

I'm consistently amazed at the excuses people can find to drag religion into politics. I shouldn't be; they drag it into everything else, too.

[Rave]

Well,I guess we would then live in Obamanation,or worse yey Obamamerica! Just kidding!

[Nanders]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

In most situations I don't even want to hear where someone believes God stands. Because it always boils down to Him being on their side somehow... For example, I doubt there's ever been a war between two Christian nations where both sides didn't claim God was on their side. That doesn't have much to do with believing what God said, much less embracing positions that are pleasing to him.

Yes, most people (that believe in God) normally believe that he is on their side in all situations. You are correctly pointing out that this is impossible as God cannot be backing mutually exclusive sides. What I am pointing out is that as a Christian, a person indeed must come to some conclusions about where God would have them stand (ie belief in Christ, beliefs about what is right and what is wrong etc.). These beliefs about doing what is right and not what is wrong will drive their decisions and behaviors in all areas of their life, including politics which is why it makes no sense to a person that really belives that the Bible is true to check that bag at the door when it comes time to make any decision. As a matter of fact we are told in the Scriptures not to do that very thing.

Quote:      

And call me cynical. But in business, when people start dragging God and Jesus into the conversation I want my money up front, because they're probably getting ready to stick it to me in the name of the Lord.

This may suprise you, but in many cases I would be right there with you on that. All to often people want to use God for their own gain (be it because of greed or pride etc.). I have seen people get burned because of the type of stuff you are bringing up, thats why I say in many cases I think your advice above is prudent.

Quote:      

Regarding Obama's name: would you call someone a liar for "trying to pass off John or Peter as American names when they're really Christian names?" Or Maria "as a Spanish name when it's really a Christian name?" Obama's middle name was his father's given name, and his father was from North Africa where it's probably a common one. Don't go making a mountain out of a mole hill; his point was probably that the name doesn't have any heavy religious connotations, any more than the names Peter, Paul and Mary.

The point that I was trying to make is that Barack should not have been afraid to admit that "yes it is a muslim name". There should be no shame in that, most of us (including Barack) don't get to pick our names, so thats why I say that he should have been the one to say "Yes its muslim, so what, its the name I was given".

Quote:      

As far as his church being Afro-centric, so what? When Dr. Martin Luther King stood up for Negro civil rights, did that make him somehow un-Christian?

No standing up for civil rights is not unChristian. But the Scriptures make it a point to drive home the idea that there is no difference between Christians in the eyes of God, so why would any Christian want to start drawing lines that the cross erased? This was a major issue in the early church, yet it took the form of Jew vs. Gentile rather than black vs. white.

Quote:      

As long as a group is simply trying to promote the welfare of its own people, as opposed to attacking and tearing down others, I see nothing un-religious about it. Would you be up in arms if it were a Polish-American church or Armenian church instead? I doubt it...

I am not really up in arms about it, there is bad theology in even the most mainstream of churches (not just Baracks) I don't see this issue as any worse than other churches' (white, black, polish, dutch reformed etc.) unbiblical positions.

Quote:      

I'm consistently amazed at the excuses people can find to drag religion into politics. I shouldn't be; they drag it into everything else, too.

You are correct when you say that you shouldnt be suprised. Earlier in this post I kind of eluded to what I am going to say about this. People interpret everything through the worldview that they embrace (including me and you). If they really believe that their world view is true (that it indeed corresponds to reality) then they cannot help but to bring their understanding of life along with them in all decisions that they make (this would include political decisions). Secular humanists do the very same thing as well. They make their decisions based on their understanding of reality, it is no different then when a Christian does the same thing (the only difference is that the Christian is normally poo-pooed for doing it).

It certainly sounds good to many people (most without strong religious convitions) that we shouldnt make decisions based on religious belief. But the problem with that is, if a person really believes their religion is correct, then it is actually impossible for them to throw out the window, that which they believe is true when it comes time to making decisions no matter how big or small.

[mym1a]

Quote:       Originally Posted by HippyInASuit

If the democrats win we'll be just as bad off as if the republicans win. If Bush doesn't suspend or cancel the elections then I think we may be safe for a bit. We'll need to use that time to repeal the Patriot Act, restore the Bill of Rights and Posse Commitatus. Otherwise we'll be screwed no matter who is in office, they'll all have the powers that Bush grabbed unless we restore our rights and our Constitution!

I have a hard time believing Bush would attempt to cancel the election, I might be wrong but that sounds realy out there ??????

[sell33]

Quote:       Originally Posted by mym1a

I have a hard time believing Bush would attempt to cancel the election, I might be wrong but that sounds realy out there ??????

Lol yes it sure does sound pretty far out there.....

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Nanders

The point that I was trying to make is that Barack should not have been afraid to admit that "yes it is a muslim name". There should be no shame in that, most of us (including Barack) don't get to pick our names, so thats why I say that he should have been the one to say "Yes its muslim, so what, its the name I was given".

Good responses on everything else, but I think you're missing the entire point concerning the the name. The fact that it's common in Muslim countries doesn't brand it exclusively as a "Muslim name."

A friend of mine is named Peter. He's named after an uncle, and he's an atheist. Would he be "lying" if he told you it's not a Christian name, or would he be trying to explain that regardless of its historical origins, his name has nothing to do with religion?

Similarly, Obama was given that name because it was his father's, not because it had anything to do with Islam. It should be a non-issue.

I think most of the people making a fuss about it are really calling him a Muslim in disguise. For example, I saw a rant yesterday on a Jewish Defense League blog, claiming any Jew who would even think of voting for someone named Hussein has obviously lost his mind. I consider that senseless hate speech.

edit: I was trying to think of an analogy here: cous-cous is popular in North Africa. It's not a lie to call it an African food instead of Muslim food, any more than it's a lie to call Southern fried chicken an American food instead of Christian food.

[Nanders]

Okay I understand what you are saying. If memory serves I thought He was asked if it were a muslim name, then said it wasnt. If your friend Peter if asked "is Peter a Christian name?", by people that arent familiar with the name Peter; I would guess that he would have no problem informing them that "yes, but it happens to be mine" I assume. That is what I was trying to get at.

But I do get your analogies.

[Rave]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

Good responses on everything else, but I think you're missing the entire point concerning the the name. The fact that it's common in Muslim countries doesn't brand it exclusively as a "Muslim name." A friend of mine is named Peter. He's named after an uncle, and he's an atheist. Would he be "lying" if he told you it's not a Christian name, or would he be trying to explain that regardless of its historical origins, his name has nothing to do with religion? Similarly, Obama was given that name because it was his father's, not because it had anything to do with Islam. It should be a non-issue. I think most of the people making a fuss about it are really calling him a Muslim in disguise. For example, I saw a rant yesterday on a Jewish Defense League blog, claiming any Jew who would even think of voting for someone named Hussein has obviously lost his mind. I consider that senseless hate speech. edit: I was trying to think of an analogy here: cous-cous is popular in North Africa. It's not a lie to call it an African food instead of Muslim food, any more than it's a lie to call Southern fried chicken an American food instead of Christian food.

Hey,relax man,don't get all lathered up,it looks like you're man just might get it yet.
Then we will see.

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Rave

Hey,relax man,don't get all lathered up,it looks like you're man just might get it yet. Then we will see.

Eh...he got it from the get-go, I think. I just have a bad habit of overkill.

And the idea that Obama was deliberately lying, as opposed to trying to explain his naming had nothing to do with religion, offended me. I'm a liberal, remember? I offend easily...

[Seabeescotty]

T2K, you might be a liberal, but I think what offends you is stuff that has no weight. I don't think a man's religion, or lack thereof, should qualify or disqualify him from holding office. I don't care for Obama, because he's too far out there for me. He's one more "Big Brother" politician wanting to hold office, so he can tell us poor, ignorant folks how to live our lives. And from what I've seen, he seems to have that stand that his people need more help, to get ahead. The situation with reverse discrimination is worsening in our society, even with illegals. If you happen to be white, and can't speak spanish, go to the back of the line. I feel like the Dem. party has become the party for minorities, and us little white folks is getting the short end of the rope. I had nothing to do with slavery, and I didn't allow illegals into my country, so why do I have to suffer the consequences?

[samuel]

Billy and Troy2000 are secular,I am christian.And yet I feel like we are the best of friends on the web,even when we disagree.We all have the right to voice our opinion,we especially all have the right to believe (or not believe) in the way we choose.I am always proud to know anyone that stands up for some belief,any belief.It saddens me to meet or hear from people that cant figure out what they believe. sam.

[Seabeescotty]

Sam, I am a Baptist, and proud of it, but it doesn't qualify me to be a politician. Matter of fact, my dad taught me to be honest, so I'd never make it. I have no hidden agendas, I was merely stating my opinion that a man's religious views should not qualify or disqualify. I also stated that some of us in this society are paying a price that we don't owe, in order for other people to get ahead. Simple as that.

[troy2000]

One of the things I appreciate about this site is the number of people who understand the concept of the "Loyal Opposition," as the Brits put it: that someone can disagree with whoever happens to be in charge without being a traitor to his country.

Unlike the old monarchies where Kings ruled in the name of God, we have the right (and the duty) to judge whether our leaders are right or wrong, and hold them accountable for their actions.

My loyalty is to the United States of America, not to whoever happens to have the latest lease on the White house. If I think whoever is in charge has his head up his tail, I'll say so.

And I believe it speaks well for my fellow Americans, and for the future of this country, that most of the people who think I'm totally wrong don't try to shut me up. They might strenuously tell me I'm full of it, but they don't claim I have no right to say my piece.

[7mmremmag1995]

buy out every gun store and go into hiding waiting for them to try to find you and your little friends

[samuel]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

Sam, I am a Baptist, and proud of it, but it doesn't qualify me to be a politician. Matter of fact, my dad taught me to be honest, so I'd never make it. I have no hidden agendas, I was merely stating my opinion that a man's religious views should not qualify or disqualify. I also stated that some of us in this society are paying a price that we don't owe, in order for other people to get ahead. Simple as that.

I agree with that. sam.

[mym1a]

what ever claim he makes on his faith is realy a non issue,just by his title alone he probably already sold his soul to the devil???????????

[stalebiscuit]

buy what you can, id like to see them take them from me (i dont own any guns after all and thats the story im sticking to)

Quote:       Originally Posted by mym1a

what ever claim he makes on his faith is realy a non issue,just by his title alone he probably already sold his sole to the devil???????????

i think hes just another dip-shit who uninformed college leftists want to vote for because "change is progress"

i still dont understand his points of view

all i know is he seems to want to change alot of stuff............dont think thats a good thing, im living well right now, dont want that to change

well i just checked out his website, and i dont like what im seeing............at all

i advise everyone else to do the same, know the candidates....then rip them a new one and anyone who supports them, ask his supporters what his stance is, 10 bucks says they aint got a clue...but hes not a republican

[Seabeescotty]

I sure am happy we're all on the same page, and can agree to disagree! By the way, my son the staff sargeant just informed me that John Mccain is going to be his next CINC. I, on the other hand, ain't sure about nothing!!!!!

[BunnyWabbit]

I just got this a couple days ago by email. Can't remember the site to check and see if it's false.

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia .

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran)

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to t he five Pil lars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him To make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no. . . Because he is instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34)

Intellectually - no. . . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he
believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. . . . Because wh en we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.
Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. - - - They obviously cannot be both 'good' Muslims and good Americans.Call it what you wish..it's still the truth. You had better believe it. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand. . ...
And Barack Hussein Obama, a Muslim, wants to be our President? You have GOT to be kidding! Wake up America !

Obama even says if he wins the election, he will be sworn in on the Quran---not a Bible!Footnote: He was sworn in on the Quran for his current office and he refuses to pledge allegiance to the United States or put his hand over his heart when the National Anthem is played!!! The Muslems have said they will destro y us fr om within.....Hello!!!! Having a Muslem president would seem to fit the bill! Would you trust this man with our national secrets?????

[Coeloptera]

Hate to tell you this (okay, not really) but that email's full of out and out lies.

Not massaging this one. Straight up untruths.

Ya got fished in if you believe that one: PolitiFact | Obama sworn in on his Bible

This lil' bit of vitriol's been making the rounds for a while now. Any cursory info search will show you he swore in on a Bible.

S'a little alarmist, dontcha think? "OMG teh mooslims r gunna take over!!11ONE!!"

That's about as seriously as I'd take that.

Heck, who here is old enough to remember when Kennedy got the same schtick because he was Catholic?

People always need to hate something, I swear.

- Coeloptera