[ArkansasHunter]

The U.S. can't afford 2 wars and I beleive Iraq will keep the U.S. tied down for a long while and I'm sure Iran, Russia and others will help see to it that were stuck there.
Personaly I hope Isreal will clobber Iraq and do us all a favior.

[Brother Bob]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Pred

What will stimulate an economy more so then anything else? War. And Bob, I'm not worried about if we are able to cripple Iran from the air, I'm worried about the event that will come right before that happens.

I don't think Iran has the balls to do anything, much less the backing from the religious leaders there, that have actually discussed normalized relations with the U.S. If Ahmadinejad was to provoke the U.S., one of his own would probably take him out. If anyone jumps on Israel, we won't have to worry about it. Israel would bomb them into the Dark Ages. Keep one thing in mind. The U.S. and it's military is the most feared on this planet. Any attack on us is suicide and everyone knows it. That includes Ahmadinejad.

[Pred]

Who said Iran would have to be behind it?

[Brother Bob]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Pred

Who said Iran would have to be behind it?

Just my point. They wouldn't. If/when we get attacked again, it will come from someone really far down our list of usual suspects.

[Pred]

Or really high on our list of unusual suspects....

[tommy]

send in a few air strikes and kill some of thier family and see how warm and fuzzy they stay towards us!!! that would only breed another killer bee hive.

Quote:       Originally Posted by Brother Bob

Iran would be crippled with two U.S. airstrikes. One on their Nuclear plant and one on the only refinery they have. The Iranian people are warm towards the U.S. and hate the anti-Western rhetoric coming out of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's mouth.

[Pred]

The only way we will be able to attack Iran is to gather the support of our allies. This country let alone the world won't go for another Iraq. We've lost a good chunk of our friends and the support, in the last few years, that we gained in the last 60. A strike or attack on Israel won't work. Lets face it, Israel would launch an all out strike, most likely with nukes, against Iran given the chance. And truthfully, I think Israel is looking forward to that day. Even then if that happens, we won't get involved to the extent we want to. It's got to be againt our troops or on our soil within the next 6-12 months.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Pred

It's really simple if you think about it. We've set up one huge chess board in the middle east. We are in the middle of all that oil, and of course, have a huge presence in that part of the world. NO ONE can argue that certain groups and people are making BILLIONS off this war. Hillary and Obama have both said they WILL pull the troops out if they win. Any president, Democrat or Republican, at this point, will have to do a troop withdraw. McCain said we would keep a small presence there(like we did in Germany and Japan) as long as US troops are not dying. Do you really think thats possible? No. The powers that be will not allow us to lose that grip on the oil and that part of the world, at any cost. Something bad will happen to keep us there, and it will have to happen, more then likely within about 60 days of a new president taking office. It's the only way. No way will we leave the region and then go back, no, we won't leave at all. This war is not about winning, it's about something else. Truth be told I believe something will happen on our soil, by whom I'm not saying, before the next election. It will have to be something to rally support for the current administration, and on a massive level. Thats the only way we will be able to wage a war against Iran, which seems to be one of the ultimate goals at the moment. Congress and the American people won't go for it unless we have a reason to attack them. And trust me, it won't be some plane flying into a building either. It will more then likely be in the form of a small nuke used against our troops in Iraq, or on our soil. Call me a tin foil head if you like, but I would much rather be wrong, and look like a crazy, then be right and say I told you so.

Pred, I have been thinking a lot along the same lines you have for the past couple months, and well since the whole war in Iraq started. I don't consider myself a paranoid conspiracy theorist toting a tin foil hat, but I do see some logical reasons why some people would want us there, and not necessarily win the war, but make it drag on forever. War = profit, plain and simple.

Our Federal Reserve is just about as Federal as Federal Express. They are a collective of rich private bankers loaning our government money at interest rates. So, our country is constantly in debt. The 25% of income taxes I pay every year doesn't go to Uncle Sam at all, it goes right back to those private bankers that run the Federal Reserve to pay off our debts to them. Each year our military funding has increased by the billions, thus our government taking out more loans and acquiring more debt and in the end putting more money back in the hands of those private people that run the Federal reserve. It is a profit building cycle, they also control how much money is printed and distributed, since our currency is no longer backed by anything its worth is valued against how much of it is in circulation. Well, with inflation it doesn't matter to them because they just get more ridiculous amounts of money right back to them.


J.D. Rockerfeller made something like 200 million dollars profit off of WWI, that was a lot of money back then. He kept giving the government loans to build more military devices and technologies and then go out and fight with them. War costs lots of money.

Now, take certain questionable things into account about terrorist attacks in our nation. NORAD for example is just a mind baffle to me on 9/11 and so is tower 7. Nothing was really explained how or why this happened, other than that NORAD just happened to be running the exact same war exercise that very same day when the terrorists hijacked the planes. The same thing happened in the 2005 train bombings in England. British intelligence was running a war game scenario about possible terrorists attacks bombing the exact same train stations that got bombed. This obviously creates enough confusion to carry off an attack. The people running the exercise get confused on what is real world and what is war game. A tactic that well, the Nazi's used in WWII.

Then something will happen again on our soil and we will then be fear mongered again. They will try to pass another 'Patriot Act' and this time out of fear our nation may finally be like, "Go ahead, take away our freedoms and our rights if you can ensure us safety." Which of course anyone with a common sense knows that you can't defend against such attacks you can only prepare for them. Things like Anthrax will be brought out again and how this invisible force that we can't stop could strike anywhere at anytime. A nation in fear is a nation that can be controlled, by fear.

If you look at our past, things like the Lucitania, Pearl harbor, 9/11 with NORAD, all have some questionable things going on, and all of them brought us into a war. Which means lots of money for the federal reserve and the board of international bankers that run it.

[troy2000]

If anyone is trying to say our own government was behind 9/11, and/or will be behind any future terrorist attacks on American, I think you're not only wrong, but taking people's eyes off our real enemies. There's a difference between thinking our government needs to be kept in check, and believing the people who work in and for it are actively evil.

Let's not cross the line between healthy caution and paranoia...

[Pred]

Do tell Troy, who are OUR real enemies?

Troy, I fully expected to not have an answer from you at this point in time. I never thought I'd use this example in an argument, but do you think the jews living in and around Germany during the 20's and early 30's would have ever thought a GOVERNMENT was capable of doing what they did? What I find hard to believe are people who are ready to go to war at the very thought someone may deny even the smallest portion of the holocaust, yet believe anyone who thinks our government is capable of deception, lying to the American people to get what they want, is a crack pot. You look back over the thousands of years you cover in history class, you scan over many civilizations, many empires, and many countries who committed crimes against their own people, who killed those who spoke out against them, locked people away with no trial, and stuck people into camps, yet you believe this could NEVER happen in our country? How is that possible? I understand that in order for someone to remotely believe what I sometimes hint at would burst the bubble you live in, but really, who is the one being truly naive?

[tommy]

with all the new laws that bush put into play if you so much as say the wronge word your as good as gone in this country.you can count on your relatives seeing your picture in the post office as "have you seen this missing person"

[Pred]

To be clear(Troy2000....) I'm not trying to convince anyone, or make someone believe, that our government was behind 9/11, or that any future attack that may and most likely will happen, will be put into play by the men we elected into office, or some rouge element of Washington. But rather the possibility, no matter how remote, is there. As with all men in power, their biggest fear is losing it. Some men are capable of doing very bad things in order to hang on to it, no matter what the cost.

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Pred

Do tell Troy, who are OUR real enemies? Troy, I fully expected to not have an answer from you at this point in time. I never thought I'd use this example in an argument, but do you think the jews living in and around Germany during the 20's and early 30's would have ever thought a GOVERNMENT was capable of doing what they did? What I find hard to believe are people who are ready to go to war at the very thought someone may deny even the smallest portion of the holocaust, yet believe anyone who thinks our government is capable of deception, lying to the American people to get what they want, is a crack pot. You look back over the thousands of years you cover in history class, you scan over many civilizations, many empires, and many countries who committed crimes against their own people, who killed those who spoke out against them, locked people away with no trial, and stuck people into camps, yet you believe this could NEVER happen in our country? How is that possible? I understand that in order for someone to remotely believe what I sometimes hint at would burst the bubble you live in, but really, who is the one being truly naive?

This is not Germany.

The Capitol Building is not the Reichstag, and our president is not Adolph Hitler.

I repeat: anyone who believes the Americans in our own government are responsible for 9/11, Oklahoma City, or any other terrorist attacks on the American public has a case of misdirected paranoia.

Save it for our real enemies.

[Pred]

I'm sure many people have said something very similar to that Troy. Now, for the second time, who are OUR real enemies?

[Rave]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Pred

Do tell Troy, who are OUR real enemies? Troy, I fully expected to not have an answer from you at this point in time. I never thought I'd use this example in an argument, but do you think the jews living in and around Germany during the 20's and early 30's would have ever thought a GOVERNMENT was capable of doing what they did? What I find hard to believe are people who are ready to go to war at the very thought someone may deny even the smallest portion of the holocaust, yet believe anyone who thinks our government is capable of deception, lying to the American people to get what they want, is a crack pot. You look back over the thousands of years you cover in history class, you scan over many civilizations, many empires, and many countries who committed crimes against their own people, who killed those who spoke out against them, locked people away with no trial, and stuck people into camps, yet you believe this could NEVER happen in our country? How is that possible? I understand that in order for someone to remotely believe what I sometimes hint at would burst the bubble you live in, but really, who is the one being truly naive?

Denial is not just a river that runs through Egypt,it runs through more and more places every day!

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Pred

I'm sure many people have said something very similar to that Troy. Now, for the second time, who are OUR real enemies?

People like you, who try to turn us against each other so we ignore the genuine threats.

Next question?

[Pred]

So now your saying that people like me are the real threat to this country?


Seriously Troy, if you don't have the answer then just say so.

[troy2000]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Pred

So now your saying that people like me are a threat to this country? Seriously Troy, if you don't have an answer then just say so.

That WAS an answer, and I was dead serious.

From the outside, our enemies right now are mostly Muslim fanatics. From the inside, it's people like you and Timothy McVeigh, who believe the government is so evil it would deliberately murder its own people so it can blame it on outsiders.

[tlarkin]

Quote:       Originally Posted by troy2000

People like you, who try to turn us against each other so we ignore the genuine threats. Next question?

Troy, you seem like a very level headed smart guy, and I don't think anyone is saying our government was behind it. However, given our intelligence, and our military and how effective they are and compare it to past events, can't you question it? Can't you ask yourself how did this happen, how could they let it happen?

How can a small terrorist cell that lives up in the mountains infiltrate us, gain top secret military information about NORAD, and execute the largest terrorist attack in our country's history? It would take so much money and so many people and so many resources for a small terrorist cell to bribe their way into our government and military for it to be an inside job. That is absurd, of course it wasn't an inside job. However, it is in many people's self interest in our government to go to war. Could they just not have let it happen? Once it happened they started to take away our rights and fear monger us into supporting a war to infiltrate the Middle East, set up camp and start creating oil lines, and give out nice hefty government contracts to Haliburton and of course borrow billions and billions of more dollars from the Federal Reserve to line the pockets of the private bankers that run the Federal Reserve.

Look at previous events that threw us into war, the Lucitania, Pearl harbor, and now 9/11 where it just seems that it is fishy how these events went down? The Lucitania was crossing a war zone with ammo on it, and of course it would have gotten sunk. Pearl Harbor, the bulk of the fleet just happened to be out on a war exercise when they were attacked. NORAD flew 64 missions in 2000, with a 100% success rate and a 10 minute on average response time. On, 2001-09-11, NORAD was doing a war game exercise of hijacked planes used as weapons. Where they had falsely induced rogue aircraft into their radar systems. So much confusion was brought to this because NORAD did not know how to respond if it was real world or exercise. Then with everything on their radar they didn't know what was real and what was war game. How do you explain that? There is no other way they would have gotten away with it. It took NORAD nearly 90 minutes to respond that day, where as before they had an average response time of 10 minutes. They also failed 4 times that day in a row, where their previous year they had a 100% success rate of all their missions.

So, either the terrorist were just extremely lucky and it was coincidence, or they had inside information about NORAD, or the government let it happen. It wasn't an inside job, but there are some many questions un-answered I can't believe anything our government tells us.

[Pred]

Delusional can be defined as a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact. It both does and doesn't apply here. Governments deliberately have people killed all the time, no one will argue that FACT. Troy, I'm not saying our own government was behind 9/11, or would be behind a possible attack in order to keep us in this war. I am saying that to deny the possibility would, to me, classify a person as delusional. Absolute power corrupts absolute. Men in power fear losing the power they've gained. And money will blacken even the brightest souls. Greed is quickly starting to dissolve everything the first generations of Americans fought to build. To think this applies to all BUT us is truly insane. I'll end this conversation with one final thought. After the plane hit the Pentagon, federal authorities immediately confiscated video from a gas station that had cameras set up to watch the station, that also could/would have shown what hit the building. The Pentagon also has cameras set up on top of the building that would have caught the plane coming in. None of this footage has ever been released, all in the name of national security. Unless the Pentagon has T-100's hiding under the lawn, there is no reasonable explanation as to why our government wouldn't release something to prove me wrong, and to prove you right. As of this second, 6 1/2 years later, I've yet to see that footage.