Why Do Americans Hate America

[Seabeescotty]

Jeepers kids, lets keep it in context! A good discussion always makes the brain cell work, and that's a good thing. On the other hand, done a bit of groveling my own self. It's okay, so long as we all get up in the morning and remember where our friends are, G&G!!!!!!!!!

[Wingwiper]

Tlarkin (no disrespect intended)


When you attack the Present Administration with vague assumptions and unproven information, you are taking a side. If I defend the present administration, becasue I do not beleive that people should bash and accuse with unproven information or with Assumptions, that does NOT mean I favor the Republicans, that simply means I do NOT favor B.S.
If you want to hate the Bush Administration that is really your progative and I can not nor will I try to alter your beleifs. I will though and I assure you I will defend if I see unfounded bashing. If I feel someone may be misinformed, I will try to give my opinion based on what I have read and researched, this DOES NOT mean I am siding with the ones I defend, I defend because it is just plain WRONG to BASH with UNFOUNDED and UNPROVEN information.
I think Mitch was trying to establish pretty much the same thing. I don't think any one of us is really flying flags for the Republican Party as much as we are saying, not everyting they are being accused of is true and much of what they are being bashed for, has been in place for decades.

Coel

You write about the FEAR of the PEOPLE and you can also call it the Lemmy Syndrome. We don't like to have to think about stuff any more, lord knows it is a full days work if you have to hit a couple of extra keys to spell a word out. So we create policies that solve the problem of having to pay attention to aything. We have create our fears and out of a hasty attempt to hide them, we have created more fears. I do not blame the govt for that, I blame us and the bitching that is constantly going on or rather the DEMANDING that is going on for Govt to do something when in reality, it isn't the Govts job, it is OURS.

[Sooner Shooter]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

Every damn day I read nothing but bad news. It's like the media is wanting us all to become miserable! ...... And by looking at some of these posts, I believe they are succeeding. We have approval ratings thrown at us. We have the pitiful housing market thrown at us. The market is in turmoil. Gas prices, through the roof! Global Warming! ...... and the list goes on. People demonstrating over everything! Do these people have jobs or are they sucking the tit of the American Taxpayer? Then you got the folks that think any law is a bad law and a violation of their rights! Guess we should just all run amuck and do what ever we want! A country with no laws and no morals! Just do what ever turns you on! I have found that the folks that do the most bitching, can't even tell me who their Senator or Congressman is! They usually don't vote and if they do, they can't tell you squat about how their candidate stands on the issues at hand. Our own Congress and Senate accusing our fighting men and women of murder and mayhem while they spend our tax money on pork and earmarks instead of funding our troops overseas! Our own enemy is picking up on the talking points that are ripping this country into! We are the envy of the entire world, but to live in this country and listen to the talking heads, including some folks on this forum, you'd think that this country was the sorriest place on this earth! For all you folks that feel that way, Nobody is making you stay! Pack your chit up and go find the country that will allow you to fullfill your dreams! I'm happy where I'm at and I don't like folks tearing my country down!.............I know,.....paragraphs are gonna be my downfall on this forum!

Nice post and don't worry about paragraphs because the paragraph Nazi was banned. I won't mention his name but when researching something I came onto his name in another forum and he was banned there also!

[TexasT]

I told him to use paragraphs...

[Wingwiper]

paragraphs ???????

paragraph nazi???

I am lost

[Sooner Shooter]

Originally Posted by TexasT

I told him to use paragraphs...

This guy I'm talking about was always critiquing people on lack of paragraphs, punctuation, and basic grammar mistakes and that's not what this place is about. The forum basically ran him out on a rail.

[TexasT]

I know, but I told him to use paragraphs before that. It's an inside joke I guess.

[Coeloptera]

Originally Posted by Wingwiper

Coel

You write about the FEAR of the PEOPLE and you can also call it the Lemmy Syndrome. We don't like to have to think about stuff any more, lord knows it is a full days work if you have to hit a couple of extra keys to spell a word out. So we create policies that solve the problem of having to pay attention to aything. We have create our fears and out of a hasty attempt to hide them, we have created more fears. I do not blame the govt for that, I blame us and the bitching that is constantly going on or rather the DEMANDING that is going on for Govt to do something when in reality, it isn't the Govts job, it is OURS.

To an extent, I agree with your sentiment. People get the government they deserve. However, sometimes, the government takes advantage of the people's fears (unfounded or not) to push an agenda. And both sides absolutely do it. They may pick different pet issues, but when you have the sort of influence being in the highest levels of government give you, you can get away with a lot.

The current Republican administration pushes fear of terror to try and keep us in line. The Left pushes fear of crime (gun bans, that sort of thing). Those are just two examples.

I wonder where our backbone has gone. Sometimes I honestly wonder if this country for some reason ever went totally controlling (in one way or another, Righty Fascists or Lefties "Protecting us from ourselves") if the majority of Americans wouldn't just put their heads down as long as they had the TV and enough food.

It's worrisome. Remember, Germans circa 1939 were not evil people...but...well...it's been said before better than I can say it by Pastor Martin Niemöller:

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist; And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist; And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew; And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

This is the version he said he preferred. I wonder if, now, we would speak up? Sometimes I'm afraid we wouldn't. I think if we had a government built on compromise again we might...but that needs to start down here, doesn't it?

- Coeloptera

[mitch_mckee]

Ya know, as far as the terrorists go, it is not a paranoid fear when capable, funded, trained, and well equipped people who want you dead simply because you are an infidel. It's not like they (Moslem terrorist leadership) don't remind us of their desire to convert by the sword just about every day.

[Coeloptera]

Originally Posted by mitch_mckee

Ya know, as far as the terrorists go, it is not a paranoid fear when capable, funded, trained, and well equipped people who want you dead simply because you are an infidel. It's not like they (Moslem terrorist leadership) don't remind us of their desire to convert by the sword just about every day.

Yes...but the world is dangerous. Living is dangerous. Any American is far, far, far more likely to be killed by a fellow American, drunk and in a car, than by any terrorist. A realistic assessment of a real threat is one thing. What we have right now is something else again.

- Coeloptera

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by Coeloptera

Yes...but the world is dangerous. Living is dangerous. Any American is far, far, far more likely to be killed by a fellow American, drunk and in a car, than by any terrorist. A realistic assessment of a real threat is one thing. What we have right now is something else again.

- Coeloptera

I think that there is a very high probability that there will be a terrorist attack in the next few years at a minimum that will kill over 10k Americans.

I'm more likely to die of heart disease but I cannot ignore threats of extermination either.

[TXplt]

If we elect to give away our constitutional rights because of "terrorism" or any other "ism," the terrorists are winning. The whole essential liberty/temporary security thing. NO ONE can guarantee your safety. That's up to you. Others can help.

[mitch_mckee]

Originally Posted by TXplt

If we elect to give away our constitutional rights because of "terrorism" or any other "ism," the terrorists are winning. The whole essential liberty/temporary security thing. NO ONE can guarantee your safety. That's up to you. Others can help.

I don't think that I have lost one single Constitutional right since the Moslems dive bombed New York on 9/11.

[LarryO1970]

Originally Posted by TXplt

If we elect to give away our constitutional rights because of "terrorism" or any other "ism," the terrorists are winning. The whole essential liberty/temporary security thing. NO ONE can guarantee your safety. That's up to you. Others can help.

Exactly ... which is even more reason why the citizens, the people... need to be able to defend themselves utilizing the 2nd Amendment.

To take away the 2nd Amendment... would strengthen the hand of anyone wanting to take advantage of us, including our own Govt.

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." George Washington

Statesmen helped build this Great Country....Politicians have helped destroy it...


... enough said.

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by mitch_mckee

I don't think that I have lost one single Constitutional right since the Moslems dive bombed New York on 9/11.

I disagree, mitch. My bank has to report on my bank transactions now to the feds (witness the endless stream of forms when we get a new CD or other routine transactions), my internet and phone records can be obtained without warrant, it's possible my phone could be tapped without warrant. These are warrantless searches any way you cut them. Not that they haven't been done in the past by Mr. Hoover, but they were always wrong. The cops AREN'T allowed to search your car without warrant, but we've said this is OK as well ? The 4th amendment is pretty clear, the warrant is a judicial check to balance and executive search. There's no value added in this either. I believe combatants can certainly be held without "due process"; but citizens can't.

And where does this get us ? I'm singled out for an enhanced search going through TSA (because my airline booked my positioning flight one way and last minute which is pretty normal for schedule changes in the airline biz) even though I'm a crewmember in uniform with proper ID who just landed a huge aircraft at the other end of the airport. I know this ahead of time because the ticket machine won't give me the automatic ticket and I have to go to the counter. In case the potential terrorist this process is supposed to catch is a total moron the counter lady dutifully highlights the screening indications on the ticket so TSA won't miss them -- neither would mr. moron. So, where's the value added here ? And, yes, I've identified that this process could be made better to target potential real terrorists to the people who run it. It hasn't been changed.

I wonder if any of this was responsible for Mr. Spitzer's downfall ? Maybe just being paranoid.

Not only is this chipping away at our liberty, it really has no significant value added. If it makes you sleep better at night thinking it does, fine. But the reality is that it only might keep out the stupidest of amateurs.

Anyway, Happy Easter to you and we won't agree on this

[mitch_mckee]

The bank transaction thingy came about long before 9/11 as an element of teh "drug war."

Cops did no knock warrantless searches long before 9/11.

As for the telephone thingy, it applies to communication coming and going to/from foreign enemies of the country, which, again, existed long, long before 9/11. I'm guessing that if you wrote a letter to Gen. Cornwallace during the Revolutionary War then it strongly suspect would be subject to interception during time of war.

I did say "since" 9/11.

Yes, this really is a war. Sorry for your inconvienience.

[Wingwiper]

I agree Mitch, I do not know of a SINGLE Constitutional Right that anyone has given up, since 9-11.

To anyone who feels we have, would you be so kind to quote the Amendment and then show an example of the lost....

Coeloptera The current Republican administration pushes fear of terror to try and keep us in line. The Left pushes fear of crime (gun bans, that sort of thing). Those are just two examples.

WOW! pretty bold statement

Well 3000 Americans killed on Sept 11th was NOT a fantasy, nor was WTC 93, nor Lockerby, Nor the USS Cole, nor the Archilles, nor Beirut, nor Kohmar Towers, nor the sailor on the plane who was shot because he had a U.S.military ID, nor so many other embassy attacks including Tehran, Iran, more in U.K. and more here that never materialized and you say the Republican administration likes to PUSH fears on to us????
I am having a very hard time understanding how you concluded this.

You acknowledged that the World is Dangerous, am I to understand, that because it doesn't affect YOU, you would rather just leave it Dangerous???

Most all of the military who are being deployed TODAY, volunteered to serve AFTER 9-11 and even after April 2003. They knew what was going on in the world and I would have to think that was one of the reasons they enlisted, they wanted to do something about it.

Txplt If we elect to give away our constitutional rights because of "terrorism" or any other "ism," the terrorists are winning. The whole essential liberty/temporary security thing. NO ONE can guarantee your safety. That's up to you. Others can help.

That simply is NOT true.
Do you mean that the people who were in the WTC could only guarantee their own safety, that if we had the P.A. in place at that time and we were able to arrest the 11 terrorists that that would not be guaranteeing their safety??I am confused.
During WWII and the Blitz, are you saying that is was all make believe that the coastal guns near the Cliffs Of Dover and the RAF who shot down Germans, didn't help to ensure the SAFETY of people in England?
why does the U.S. have an Air Force? and Army? a Navy? or the Marines if they can't guarantee our safety? Why do we have a military? The U.S. guarantees my safety and has for over 200 years and I am able to sleep soundly at night because I know my Govt is keeping me SAFE, it is when the Govt is attacked and is weaken that MY safety becomes in jepordy. I then have to fend for myself but I will still have FULL knowledge that my govt is trying to regroup.

The ONLY Amendment that we have been threaten to lose is the Second and the Supreme Court is ready to make a ruling to protect it for the next 250 years. The First is abused as it is when I see people who piss on my flag and are so-called PROTECTED under the First. The threat we have is abuse of the U.S. Constitution and not by abolishment of parts of it. Civil Rights are NOT Constitutional Rights per se. You can NOT yell FIRE in a crowded movie theater if there is No fire, or yell BOMB on board a crowed commerical airliner, so the first has had restrictions given to it and quite possibly to protect the well being and safety of all of us, the NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGH THE NEEDS OF THE FEW you may see some other restrictions added. I do not see that as a lost and if it is, you don't need to blame our government but blame the S.O.B.s that want to kill us without Uniforms without a Flag and without a country, we are waging a war on several fronts unlike any war that has ever existed before and could not even remotely be precieved by our forefathers.. We need to improvise and over come and we will.

txplt I disagree, mitch. My bank has to report on my bank transactions now to the feds (witness the endless stream of forms when we get a new CD or other routine transactions), my internet and phone records can be obtained without warrant, it's possible my phone could be tapped without warrant. These are warrantless searches any way you cut them. Not that they haven't been done in the past by Mr. Hoover, but they were always wrong. The cops AREN'T allowed to search your car without warrant, but we've said this is OK as well ? The 4th amendment is pretty clear, the warrant is a judicial check to balance and executive search. There's no value added in this either. I believe combatants can certainly be held without "due process"; but citizens can't.

Your bank has to report because of many cases of FRAUD that has happened to the IRS. It is not fair to rest of us that many have laundered their money, that was a fix that was voted on and anytime you can push to have it changed and I think it may be when they go to a SALES TAX verus an INCOME TAX.
I do not believer that YOUR phone records can be obtained without warrant, I do not doubt the Internet can, because the Internet is not under any one countries laws and is over 1000s of public computers. Telephone records or rather the TEXT MESSAGES of that Chicago Mayor were obtained for 6 years and they were obtained by a PRIVATE COMPANY and I started a thread about that on here, I thought that was way overboard and illegal, but it wasn't done by the Govt and there was a Warrant to obtain them. The only time your phone will be tapped is if you make a call to a KNOWN TERRORIST and at first your info is no different than the Caller ID info you get everytime someone CALLS YOU. Now when you have spoken certain BUZZ WORDS< the computer is triggered to the NEXT level of Interception and then if BUZZ WORDS form certain PHRASES than Human intervention kicks in. If you aren't a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about.

There was MAJOR CENSORSHIP in place during WWII, soldiers mail was edited and censored, without their knowledge or permission. Serious times promote serious measures, it has happened many times before.

[TXplt]

I can handle inconveniences. I'm unwilling to gratuitously forfeit the liberties I and my forefathers fought for over the issue of the day.

For what it's worth, the additional bank information I'm required to supply IS a direct result of the PA. I know this because I called my bank and they told me this.

Another brilliant law passed in the wake of all of this is that I can't walk in with my retired Military ID, Driver's License, and my FAA certificates and ratings and rent an airplane. To counter the ever present Cessna 172 threat, I need to bring in my passport or birth certificate, fill out a bunch of paperwork, and wait...... If my wife (who is a Japanese national, flight attendant with all the security documentation on file with the TSA, and permanent resident with all the appropriate documentation) wishes to take flight instruction, she must go through a very cumbersome process, fill out several forms, wait, and pay a $130.00 fee just for the privilege. THIS ACCOMPLISHES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE WAY OF SECURITY ! In a way, it's very much like gun control.

Wing, if you thing the PA would've stopped 9/11 I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. Knowing hijackings had gone from a crime of profit to terrorists using aircraft as missiles would have.

[Wingwiper]

Originally Posted by TXplt

I can handle inconveniences. I'm unwilling to gratuitously forfeit the liberties I and my forefathers fought for over the issue of the day.

For what it's worth, the additional bank information I'm required to supply IS a direct result of the PA. I know this because I called my bank and they told me this.

What LIBERTIES have you had to forfeit????? I fought for the liberties too and I do not see any errossion of my liberties or of my So-called rights. I find it amazing how few times the word FREEDOM is used in the Constitution, I think it was 4 times. Yet we all claim we have a freedom to do or say everything. Back to the pissing on the flag. What have YOU lost that is directly guaranteed under the U.S. Constitution???

The bank told you?? who a teller? or the President? I wouldn't believe it unless I saw the order in writing, people lie and ALWAYS blame someone else, that is American Nature. People will say the dumbest things and what is remarkable is how often they are believed.

Another brilliant law passed in the wake of all of this is that I can't walk in with my retired Military ID, Driver's License, and my FAA certificates and ratings and rent an airplane. To counter the ever present Cessna 172 threat, I need to bring in my passport or birth certificate, fill out a bunch of paperwork, and wait...... If my wife (who is a Japanese national, flight attendant with all the security documentation on file with the TSA, and permanent resident with all the appropriate documentation) wishes to take flight instruction, she must go through a very cumbersome process, fill out several forms, wait, and pay a $130.00 fee just for the privilege. THIS ACCOMPLISHES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE WAY OF SECURITY ! In a way, it's very much like gun control.

That surprises me, the Military ID has a IC Chip on it and is pretty hard to copy. It can be altered and even stolen, so I guess I can understand a Notarized Birth Certificate helps but still won't guarantee you are a Sophisicated terrorists. The terrorists have a lot of money behind them and remember Alta or whatever his name was, paid rent in cash, took flying lessons in cash, had good clothing etc etc all paid for in cash and was able to board an airliner and high jack it (I know, with cheap box cutters). I think Obama has been DEAD since Tora Bora and like Hollywood was able to put Dinoseaurs in Jurassic Park, with a little editing and some decent equipment, Obama is ALIVE on Video...... I don't have an answer for you Txpplt, but if the hassles that you are going thru help to guarantee my daughter's safety as she flies back and forth to college, well, you know my answer for now.

Wing, if you thing the PA would've stopped 9/11 I'm afraid you're sorely mistaken. Knowing hijackings had gone from a crime of profit to terrorists using aircraft as missiles would have.

Alta wouldn't have received flying lessons, if the Profiling was a bit more accepted, then YES! I do think they would have been caught, look at how many have been caught since and many we don't even know about have been discouraged.
Your statement can not be proved and there was only speculation that terrorists were going to use A/C as missiles, there was NO Intel to tell when, where, flight numbers, names of the terrorists etc etc. We know the Earth will be hit by a Meteor but we can't really prepare if we don't know when and where etc. Hind sight is always accurate and foresight is open for a lot of errors.

I feel your pain. We live in an age where I can easily scan any document you want and print it out on my Printer and have a document that looks as good as the original. My daughter works at a convience store while going thru college and she willbe fired on the spot if she sells booze to an underage patron. Even if Proper ID is shown, because of the ability to obtain FALSE ID, you must also use common sense and take every precaution. I can understand where you feel frustrated, but think of the next person who is responsible for the next terrorist to slip thru, think what will happen to them. People are being over cautious and we all witnessed that with the duct tape. Th threat is very real and because it may be an inconvience does not mean it isn;t working.

I remember the Check points in Calif and how the ILLEGAL ALIEN problem was way more under control than it is now, but people who looked Hispanic complained that it was an harassment to be checked for id at the check points, so the checkpoints were closed and the problem grew into enormous proportions.

Not to sound disrespectful, but instead of complaining about the current process maybe it would be better for you to reason out a BETTER process and see if that can be put into place instead. We al can find fault but it is hard to find a better solution.

I didn't like the idea of seeing our military at Airports, that was a feeling of total failure when I am going to an airport and I see the military as I would in a communist country. SO the Military was removed and replaced with Homeland Security hired wannabe storm troopers who have a quick course in the CLOSE COVER BEFORE STRIKING school of Heavy machinery and Airport security. Which is worse? We need to eliminate the THREAT and then we can eliminate the precautions.

[Seabeescotty]

So far, I don't feel that I've lost any of my personal rights. Occasionally, I set off the metal detector, and have to show my military ID, and explain that I can't remove the metal in my body. They do a search, and I go through, simple as that. As long as the gun grabbers are kept at bay, I don't think I have to worry about losing anything. The only way a person is going to be investigated is if they're doing something shady, or happen to have the same name as a known threat to our security. And yes, mistakes are made, because we're all human and subject to Murphy's Law!!