almost 4k lets not forget them!!!!

tommy · 03-23-2008, 11:55 AM

numbers are getting higher

My Way News - US Deaths in Iraq Approach 4,000

Mad Hatter · 03-23-2008, 01:30 PM

And the almost 4,000 families that lost loved ones.. I don't know how much longer our troops can take it over there, and I know we don't have the money to pay for it..
I think that what ever is going to happen over there when we leave, will happen whether we stay for another 5 years or 5 months..

big boomer · 03-23-2008, 02:01 PM

My son was over there and as soon as he got back he had to go to a good friends send off. His friend was going to disarm a roadside bomb and there was a second one to get him when he tried. I worried every day my son was there but knew it was needed. We need to tell the Media to shut up and let us win it we would have by now with out the negitive press and traitors in congress.

Cyrano · 03-23-2008, 02:04 PM

Five years, Mad Hatter? I'd say 10, minumum.

We're talking about building a new, democratic government structure there - more precisely, a republic such as America is, where we have elected representative that run the country and make the laws. The difference between what we had to do in occupied Germany and Japan is this: Iraq has no experience with a functional republican government system.

When the Brits owned the place, their colonial service ran everything with some tribal leaders as figureheads. Then Iraq became a 'nation' and went to an allegedly constitutional monarchy that was a false flag for a strongman government. Then Saddam took over the joint and the false flag dropped and you had a dictatorship run by the Hussein clan and their buddies. Oh sure, both as a kingdom and as a dictatorship there was a national assembly, but it was a rubberstamp like the Richstag was for Hitler or the Diet was for the Japanese militarists before and during World War II; it had no real power. Membership was a cookie given to prominent Ba'athists that legitimized their theivery and thugdom.

The situation is more like what we had in the Philippines after the Spanish American War, where we got the islands as war reparations. It took Arthur MacArthur three years to convince the natives we were not going to simply replace the Spaniards as colonial overlords, and another five before the last of the tribal rebellions was ended. He and the State Department laid it out to the Filipinos: a timetable to nationhood, with a democratic structure. It started with the villages and towns electing mayors and such. Later, elections were expanded to include provincial governors and assemblies. Then a national assembly. Then they added a president. The idea was that by 1950, America would be out of the Filipino government altogether and they would have full independence. The experiment began with the USA controlling everything. By the time World War II interrupted, the Filipinos were running all their domestics affairs and out involvement was solely in assisting them to run their armed forces and in setting foreign policy. They earned their spurs fighting with us against the Japanese, and in 1946 they were given the independence they had earned on the battlefield by the United States. That's why even today they are good friends and allies of ours.

But you notice the timetable. Spain handed over the islands in 1898. It was just under 50 years from American occupation to Filipino independence. Like the Iraqis, they had no experience with Democracy. They had to build their insitutitions from the bottom up. That's why they worked, and still work. In Iraq, we are trying to build from the top down. When you build from the top down, you need cranes to hold up the roof while you build the walls and floors. It's a dumb way to build a building, and a worse way to build a government.

If we bail out before even the framework of a democratic structure in Iraq is firmly in place, the place will collapse into civil war. And it will be our fault.

We never should have gone in there without a clear plan for what to do after we conquered the country. George Bush and his advisors were asses for sending troops there to start with. But we can't unring the bell. We have to find some way to get the Iraqis back on their feet before we can leave if we don't want to leave things even worse than they were before we came. Don't ask me what that way is; I don't have any viable ideas. But common humanity demands we fix what we screwed up in Iraq before we can go home again.

troy2000 · 03-23-2008, 02:39 PM

You've pretty well described the problem, Cyrano. We shouldn't have been there to begin with, but it's hard to unbreak an egg. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we can lay out any kind of viable framework for a government to succeed by our definitions. Their culture is older than ours, and they're pretty set in their ways.

My guess is that no matter what we do or when we leave, Iraq will explode into bloody internecine warfare, until eventually some sort of strongman comes out on top and imposes his will. So the question becomes one of whether there's anything to be gained by delaying the inevitable...

The_Patriot · 03-23-2008, 03:17 PM

You know, my heart goes out to each and every family member (and friends) of those injured and killed; war is a tragedy and failure of mankind and the human toll is enormous.

I just finished my 20 years and I met some awfully idealistic and brave people. They are all heroes, whether they were injured, killed or returned safely. Every one of them deserves our thanks.

But. And this is a big but.

I would like to highlight a big distinction when you consider 4,000. The vast majority of them believed in what they were doing and knew the risks. Some were there for money, but most were not. They wanted to stay and be part of something that could change the world for the better.

By the government's numbers, over 6,000,000 abortions have taken place in the United States since the war began. I am not a big abortion "nut," but I do think it's wrong; I just like to bring that up now and again to point out perspective. 6 MILLION have died in the US since the war started; these were babies...kids, fathers, mothers, daughters, sisters, brothers, cousins, etc., that never had a chance at life, let alone a choice to decide to fight for their country of not.

When I hear people getting outraged over the human cost of this war, I sometimes wish they'd acknowledge what goes on inside our own borders with the same zeal. And killing of unborn doesn't stop when the war stops...it goes on day after day, year after year, in this country, with no end. That is tragic.

Perspective is important.

jd1911 · 03-23-2008, 03:59 PM

i lost a member of my platoon their and not a day goes by that i dont think about her as a member of my family thank every one of you for caring

03-23-2008, 11:55 AM	#1
tommy Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: schriever la Posts: 4,034 Images: 6	almost 4k lets not forget them!!!! numbers are getting higher My Way News - US Deaths in Iraq Approach 4,000 __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

03-23-2008, 02:04 PM	#4
Cyrano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York Posts: 2,362	Five years, Mad Hatter? I'd say 10, minumum. We're talking about building a new, democratic government structure there - more precisely, a republic such as America is, where we have elected representative that run the country and make the laws. The difference between what we had to do in occupied Germany and Japan is this: Iraq has no experience with a functional republican government system. When the Brits owned the place, their colonial service ran everything with some tribal leaders as figureheads. Then Iraq became a 'nation' and went to an allegedly constitutional monarchy that was a false flag for a strongman government. Then Saddam took over the joint and the false flag dropped and you had a dictatorship run by the Hussein clan and their buddies. Oh sure, both as a kingdom and as a dictatorship there was a national assembly, but it was a rubberstamp like the Richstag was for Hitler or the Diet was for the Japanese militarists before and during World War II; it had no real power. Membership was a cookie given to prominent Ba'athists that legitimized their theivery and thugdom. The situation is more like what we had in the Philippines after the Spanish American War, where we got the islands as war reparations. It took Arthur MacArthur three years to convince the natives we were not going to simply replace the Spaniards as colonial overlords, and another five before the last of the tribal rebellions was ended. He and the State Department laid it out to the Filipinos: a timetable to nationhood, with a democratic structure. It started with the villages and towns electing mayors and such. Later, elections were expanded to include provincial governors and assemblies. Then a national assembly. Then they added a president. The idea was that by 1950, America would be out of the Filipino government altogether and they would have full independence. The experiment began with the USA controlling everything. By the time World War II interrupted, the Filipinos were running all their domestics affairs and out involvement was solely in assisting them to run their armed forces and in setting foreign policy. They earned their spurs fighting with us against the Japanese, and in 1946 they were given the independence they had earned on the battlefield by the United States. That's why even today they are good friends and allies of ours. But you notice the timetable. Spain handed over the islands in 1898. It was just under 50 years from American occupation to Filipino independence. Like the Iraqis, they had no experience with Democracy. They had to build their insitutitions from the bottom up. That's why they worked, and still work. In Iraq, we are trying to build from the top down. When you build from the top down, you need cranes to hold up the roof while you build the walls and floors. It's a dumb way to build a building, and a worse way to build a government. If we bail out before even the framework of a democratic structure in Iraq is firmly in place, the place will collapse into civil war. And it will be our fault. We never should have gone in there without a clear plan for what to do after we conquered the country. George Bush and his advisors were asses for sending troops there to start with. But we can't unring the bell. We have to find some way to get the Iraqis back on their feet before we can leave if we don't want to leave things even worse than they were before we came. Don't ask me what that way is; I don't have any viable ideas. But common humanity demands we fix what we screwed up in Iraq before we can go home again. Last edited by Cyrano; 03-23-2008 at 02:07 PM.

03-23-2008, 02:39 PM	#5
troy2000 Resident Armed Liberal Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Southern California Posts: 9,475 Images: 9	You've pretty well described the problem, Cyrano. We shouldn't have been there to begin with, but it's hard to unbreak an egg. Unfortunately, I'm not sure we can lay out any kind of viable framework for a government to succeed by our definitions. Their culture is older than ours, and they're pretty set in their ways. My guess is that no matter what we do or when we leave, Iraq will explode into bloody internecine warfare, until eventually some sort of strongman comes out on top and imposes his will. So the question becomes one of whether there's anything to be gained by delaying the inevitable... __________________ If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. -Anatole France Last edited by troy2000; 03-23-2008 at 02:42 PM.

03-23-2008, 03:17 PM	#6
The_Patriot Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Middle of Ohio Posts: 371	You know, my heart goes out to each and every family member (and friends) of those injured and killed; war is a tragedy and failure of mankind and the human toll is enormous. I just finished my 20 years and I met some awfully idealistic and brave people. They are all heroes, whether they were injured, killed or returned safely. Every one of them deserves our thanks. But. And this is a big but. I would like to highlight a big distinction when you consider 4,000. The vast majority of them believed in what they were doing and knew the risks. Some were there for money, but most were not. They wanted to stay and be part of something that could change the world for the better. By the government's numbers, over 6,000,000 abortions have taken place in the United States since the war began. I am not a big abortion "nut," but I do think it's wrong; I just like to bring that up now and again to point out perspective. 6 MILLION have died in the US since the war started; these were babies...kids, fathers, mothers, daughters, sisters, brothers, cousins, etc., that never had a chance at life, let alone a choice to decide to fight for their country of not. When I hear people getting outraged over the human cost of this war, I sometimes wish they'd acknowledge what goes on inside our own borders with the same zeal. And killing of unborn doesn't stop when the war stops...it goes on day after day, year after year, in this country, with no end. That is tragic. Perspective is important. __________________ "If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." Tom Paine 1776 Last edited by The_Patriot; 03-23-2008 at 04:01 PM.

03-23-2008, 01:30 PM	#2
Mad Hatter Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Connecticut Posts: 622	And the almost 4,000 families that lost loved ones.. I don't know how much longer our troops can take it over there, and I know we don't have the money to pay for it.. I think that what ever is going to happen over there when we leave, will happen whether we stay for another 5 years or 5 months..

03-23-2008, 02:01 PM	#3
big boomer Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Minn. Posts: 986	My son was over there and as soon as he got back he had to go to a good friends send off. His friend was going to disarm a roadside bomb and there was a second one to get him when he tried. I worried every day my son was there but knew it was needed. We need to tell the Media to shut up and let us win it we would have by now with out the negitive press and traitors in congress.

03-23-2008, 03:59 PM	#7
jd1911 Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 125	i lost a member of my platoon their and not a day goes by that i dont think about her as a member of my family thank every one of you for caring