why trickle down economics doesn't work

[tlarkin]

Yeah, because that extra $6 a month will really trickle into their economy and boost it. You think that it will help in the long run? Heck no it won't. They'll keep oppressing them and keep giving them nothing.

The whole idea of trickle down economics is that eventually they will have an economy good enough that they can compete in world markets, yet that mere $6/month they got as a raise makes little to no difference.

People who advocate such theories think and believe that this will farm out economies across the globe, when in fact it only makes those in control the money and the worker never can rise above.

[soonerborn]

See what I mean tlarkin. Did you even read my post? I tried, oh how I tried.

That "worthless" $6 a month raise as you call it, was a 10% percent raise on their wages. Thats TEN PERCENT. I dont know about you but if my employer raised my wages by 10% I wouldnt blow it off as worthless. That would represent a 10% increase in my purchasing power. They also are providing free lunches, which will also help although not nearly as much as the raise will. What you failed to do yet again after I explicitly pointed it out to you is take into account what life is like there. You automatically think of how that money would affect your own condition and apply it to a Vietnamese worker.

Have you ever traveled outside the US. I have, extensively, and I can tell you that while that "worthless" raise might simply mean another cheeseburger over here it makes a big difference in the right country, such as Vietnam.

People who advocate such theories think and believe that this will farm out economies across the globe, when in fact it only makes those in control the money and the worker never can rise above.

Tell that to the South Koreans, the Japanese, the Indians, the Singaporeans of the world. The difference in their quality of life is tremendous and its still very fresh in their minds. Unlike the avg American who has forgotten how much their ancestors sacrificed, working in terrible conditions, to enable a much higher living standard for future generations.


Let me try one more thing to put things into perspective for you. Per Business Asia, the government set minimum wage for Ben Luc, where the strike occurred, is $50 US a month. These workers just negotiated a $65 a month paycheck. So exactly how is Nike oppressing these workers when they agreed to a wage that is 20-25% higher than minimum wage workers in the area are getting? Also keep in mind that these minimum wage mandates set are for FORIEGN owned companies only. The native companies are under no such restriction and pay far below what the "sweatshop" workers get.

[TXplt]

OK everyone, let's just tax the hell out of our big "evil" corporations and let the "government" redistribute this boon of wealth to our "middle" classes (whatever that means). Never mind the fact that (if you have a 401K, mutual fund, any investments at all, or even banking or savings accounts) alot of that evil profit money had been going back to YOU (whether you knew it or not). If you have no investments or money put away for a rainy day, fear not. You'll not be left out. Guess where that "middle class" tax money is going to come from ? The corporations will simply raise prices and pass that tax expense right along to us the consumers (just like an increase in the cost of raw materials). That's YOU AND ME. Higher prices for everyone ! AND, to minimize the tax impact, guess what ? The companies will attempt to minimize their costs which means even MORE jobs go overseas.

And I'll bet we, in the "middle" class will see but a fraction of this money as it gets gobbled up on the way over by those in the goverment moving the money "supervising" this scheme.

When will we ever learn ? When we propose "windfall profits taxes" we're only stealing from ourselves. Government-sponsored income redistribution plans don't work. No culture has ever taxed its way into prosperity.

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by soonerborn

Ok tlarkin I'll bite. Exactly how much research did you do on this? besides just reading the story you linked. Whats the avg monthly wage in Vietnam? Hows that compare to what these Nike employees are getting?

How exactly did you arrive at the conclusion that these workers have no rights? Looks like they are on strike for higher wages to me, looks like thats a workers right to me. Or did I read that wrong.

Looks like the fighting broke out between workers differing on when to break the strike and not just a beat down handed out by hired Nike thugs.

Are these working conditions acceptable in the US? no of course not but thats not the US. To so quickly assume what life is like in a country like Vietnam and then use those faulty assumptions to argue a socialist view point is typical of the propaganda you have swallowed hook line and sinker. Thats where your wrong.

Sweatshops are a natural stage of development in a country's economy. We used to have them here, they used to be in Europe, then they moved to countries like Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong and India. How are their economies now? People in countries like Vietnam, have 2 basic choices to survive, work in agriculture or work in a sweatshop. With your industry based on manual labor, agriculture is not the way to go if you want to move up the ladder.

The fact is people over there in countries like Vietnam are lining up to take these sweatshop jobs because THEY ARE MAKING MORE MONEY THAN THEY OTHERWISE COULD. If big bad Nike was forced to pay these people what they would pay a worker in the US they wouldnt be there at all and then what kind of choice would that leave the worker you care so much for.

From where I sit, when you say "dont buy Nike", I hear "dont give third world countries a chance to compete on the global market".

Companies like Nike provide countries like Vietnam a vital asset, the ability to tap into their greatest resource. Cheap labor. So if you dont want to help out countries like Vietnam, by all means its your right to boycott Nike. Just understand what your doing. Now go buy a pair of birkenstocks and bash Vietnam all you want.

+1

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Originally Posted by TXplt

When will we ever learn ? When we propose "windfall profits taxes" we're only stealing from ourselves. Government-sponsored income redistribution plans don't work. No culture has ever taxed its way into prosperity.

Heard an economist once say that corporations don't have profits since they aren't an individual. The money that corporations have are held by the stockholders since stockholders are the ultimate owner of the corporation. If you tax a corporation's profit say 20 million out of a hundred million dollars that's 20%. And let's say half of that money is distributed across the board to to the stockholders holding 5 million shares; which is about 8$ a share. If you hold 1000 share then that's 8,000$ you have earned. Then you get taxed on your money you have earned at 20%. You have been ultimately taxed twice at a rate of 28%. And if you decide to spend this money you are then taxed again at the store for what you wish to buy.

That's not exactly how it works but that's damn close.

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

Heard an economist once say that corporations don't have profits since they aren't an individual. The money that corporations have are held by the stockholders since stockholders are the ultimate owner of the corporation. If you tax a cororation's profit say 20 million out of a hundred million dollars that's 20%. And let's say half of that money is distributed across the board to to the stockholders holding 5 million shares; which is about 8$ a share. If you hold 1000 share then that's 8,000$ you have earned. Then you get taxed on your money you have earned at 20%. You have been ultimately taxed twice at a rate of 28%. And if you decide to spend this money you are then taxed again at the store for what you wish to buy.

Bingo !!! -- completely correct.

This is that "double taxed" money that people talk about.

The bad thing about taxing investment income/interest income is it acts as a disincentive for people to save or invest (which is good for them and the economy). You're putting the money at risk (or not spending it if you save) and you're penalized for being successful, frugal, and prudent under our system. Our tax scheme encourages write-offs and for people to live in debt, which is wholly undesirable for an economy.

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

The only exception is that there are people out there who make their entire living off of investment income. You simply can't allow people to live tax free from investments while others who work 40 hr week jobs are taxed to death.

The only way to put everyone on an equal playing field is The Fair tax.

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by SPOCAHP ANAR

The only exception is that there are people out there who make their entire living off of investment income. You simply can't allow people to live tax free from investments while others who work 40 hr week jobs are taxed to death.

The only way to put everyone on an equal playing field is The Fair tax.

I'll buy that. ONE TAX, FLAT RATE, with some level of initial income exemption.

[Brother Bob]

Bear in mind that a corporate tax is passed on to the consumer as a higher price for the service or the product. So yes, we are paying the company's tax in the price of the service or product, plus, we are taxed again at the cash register or gas pump. What really pisses me off is paying taxes on cigarettes, beer, and liquor after they have already been taxed before you by the product! I believe we had a Revolutionary War over this back in the late 1700's, but I could be wrong..........

[TXplt]

We did, Bob ! I'm none too happy about all of these taxes as well, especially when you consider we've spent all of this and 9 Trillion more, and what are we getting for all this loot ? When you look at your phone bill, look at all the "hidden" taxes as well. SPOCAHP's right -- One tax, fair, flat, simple and out in the open. That's it. Balanced budget as well.

Cheers

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Originally Posted by TXplt

We did, Bob ! I'm none too happy about all of these taxes as well, especially when you consider we've spent all of this and 9 Trillion more, and what are we getting for all this loot ? When you look at your phone bill, look at all the "hidden" taxes as well. SPOCAHP's right -- One tax, fair, flat, simple and out in the open. That's it. Balanced budget as well.

Cheers

What's good about the fair tax is you aren't taxed on the basic necessities of life (you are but you are refunded this amount based on a government index similar to that of the poverty index). What's even better is that if you don't like the current government you can protest by not spending any money on lavish/unnecessary expenditures.

[TXplt]

I'll take it ! Now we only need to elect folks that will do this AND support our 2A.

[Brother Bob]

Imagine how nice it would be to downsize the IRS!......... And while I'm at it, the next person on this forum that advocates the U.S. Government getting involved with any U.S. company will receive a nasty-gram! Name one thing that the government runs as efficiently as any Fortune 500 company??????? I rest my case!

[ArkansasHunter]

I would like to compliment all of you on the excellent posts yall have made...A.H

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by ArkansasHunter

I would like to compliment all of you on the excellent posts yall have made...A.H

Hi A.H., just jump right in, my friend. I believe the folks on this forum could run the country better than what we have now! LOL!

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Americans For Fair Taxation:

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by TXplt

We did, Bob ! I'm none too happy about all of these taxes as well, especially when you consider we've spent all of this and 9 Trillion more, and what are we getting for all this loot ? When you look at your phone bill, look at all the "hidden" taxes as well. SPOCAHP's right -- One tax, fair, flat, simple and out in the open. That's it. Balanced budget as well.

Cheers

What are we getting for this, you ask? A bridge to nowhere in Alaska and a prison museum, just to mention a few! Pork!!!!! No wonder most Americans have got high cholesterol readings. Congress can't seem to be able to pass any meaningful bill without adding all kinds of B.S. that cost the tax payers money! I say, no more ear-marks! We can't continue to spend money we don't have! This country is Bankrupt! If China, who holds most of our bonds, was to ever cash in, we'd be screwed!

[tlarkin]

Sooner,

I know your point and understand it and have heard it all before, and while you make great points and I do agree with some of what you say. However, I do digress this, that the whole point of a 10% increase of wages does not mean what it does here nor does it mean anything. I have two friends that actually live in Vietnam right now and one of them is married to a Vietnam national. They both teach English over there right now. I have gotten 10% raises at work and I have had gotten new jobs which have increased my salary over 14k in one leap per a year, yet I have little to show for that much of an increase due to the cost of living, and how it has sky rocketed. The same applies to every other nation.

Food is not that expensive but every thing else is. They still can not afford to own anything, they can't own property. Sure a BMW many cost 40K here in our country but it cost 400K of their dollars, and that 6$ per a month raise means nothing.

Take property into consideration. An average house in my state in my city where abouts where I live costs between 130 and 200k to buy. In CA it would most likely be at least double that, and in Vietnam it would be triple or quadruple that.

People in our own country do not understand the problem of poverty in our own country. It is growing and grown and our inner cities are getting more and more crowded because they are reproducing and are stuck in the same way of life. I see it all the time on my local news, where I work every day, and in the city I live it. My city is extremely dynamic in the sense that you can go from half million dollar homes to the ghetto in less than 8 miles distance.

We are becoming a society of the haves and the have nots, and we are spreading this exact example into foreign countries. This is a problem that may be the biggest in our nation but the most unknown. This is not a political problem yet because most poor people don't vote and they don't care, because a lot of them have already given up.

Give 5, 10, or even 15 years and our inner cities will just get worse and worse, and all of us who never have to deal with it will never truly care.

The sad and worse thing about the article is what they settled for, when instead they should unionize, and create rights and benefits for their work force. They should have the ability to better them self by hard work, but instead they are still being oppressed and only got a measly $6/month out of it.

If you cannot see this then there is little more I can say.

##EDIT

I drank about 15 beers and cooked fried tacos from scratch tonight so there may be some spelling and or grammar errors as well as some babbling. For that I do sincerely apologize. KU won, and for a second I thought they wouldn't.

[TXplt]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob

What are we getting for this, you ask? A bridge to nowhere in Alaska and a prison museum, just to mention a few! Pork!!!!! No wonder most Americans have got high cholesterol readings. Congress can't seem to be able to pass any meaningful bill without adding all kinds of B.S. that cost the tax payers money! I say, no more ear-marks! We can't continue to spend money we don't have! This country is Bankrupt! If China, who holds most of our bonds, was to ever cash in, we'd be screwed!

This is true, and even more reason we need a strong military. We probably need to have the ability to tell these foreign interests that we can't/aren't going to pay them (and that they were foolish for buying the bonds in the first place). Unfortunately, when you can tax under the threat of prison, you can become less than faithful stewards of the moneys you collect. Maybe we should all run for congress--we seem to have this figured out !!!!

TL--the problem of our class polarization/poverty is CAUSED by our government intervention. Politicians sell principle for votes(and vote money out of the public treasury), using their electorate to feather their own nest and worsening their plight. Look at Gun Control (which is but one issue supported by would be social engineers) -- it causes a self-exacerbating problem. We also take money and incentive away from those who would help their fellow man with their own cash, but now believe the government is doing this.

A. H. -- Thanks ! Have a great day !

[SPOCAHP ANAR]

Originally Posted by tlarkin

We are becoming a society of the haves and the have nots, and we are spreading this exact example into foreign countries. This is a problem that may be the biggest in our nation but the most unknown. This is not a political problem yet because most poor people don't vote and they don't care, because a lot of them have already given up.
Give 5, 10, or even 15 years and our inner cities will just get worse and worse, and all of us who never have to deal with it will never truly care.
The sad and worse thing about the article is what they settled for, when instead they should unionize, and create rights and benefits for their work force. They should have the ability to better them self by hard work, but instead they are still being oppressed and only got a measly $6/month out of it.

First of all the problem with the inner cities goes back to the welfare state and culture in which the people are raise in. Poverty doens't cause crime poor morals do.

Secondly, 100 yrs ago we had the largest middle class we ever had, there was no income tax withholding and we didn't have all the social programs and taxes and license fees we have today, there was no special worker protections like minimum wage, overtime, Osha etc...... and the wife stayed home.

Not to mention people actually saved money back then. Yeah our economy is strong but look at how people are putting themselves in debt to keep it going this way.

You create wealth by keeping the government out of my pocket. When I am taxed to help pay for someone's bridge to their private island or to help pay for some deadbeat's kids then I have little left over to do for my family.