[Wingwiper]

I have shot a lot of competition and I have NEVER used a HP. All of our MATCH AMMO was LC 7.62mm and Ball and 5.56mm Ball.

My question would be this.
When the M16A2 came out it came out with some NEW ammo and that ammo was referred to as GREEN TIP and some of that GREEN TIP had a Tungsten or Teflon Core. (I don't remember which) and that core was NOT always ABSOLUTE CENTERED and every now and again, we would have a great sight picture and the round would wobble off course and miss the entire target frame and go about 2 feet to the left of the frame. This was more noticeble at 400, 500 and 600 meters. My question for the HP is: IS THAT HOLE ALWAYS ABSOLUTELY CENTERED????? If that hole is off by just a tad, then it will be off balance in its spin and wobble off its intended course.
I find it hard for this reason that the HP would be more accurate than a FMJ. MY opinion.

[GlennM]

I've never had much success in the accuracy department when shooting SS109 (the green tip stuff). .02

[rfc357]

Well, Wingwiper, you may get an argument from a few thousand competitive shooters who use Sierra hollowpoints. I shot a service rifle match yesterday. The shooter next to me was a high master distinguished rifleman who shot 487/500 using Sierra hollowpoints. Can you do better with your FMJs?

Your opinion is not supported by reality.

(I did not do so well.)

[Wingwiper]

RFC357

My Opinion is NOT supported by reality??? Care to be more specific?? Do you have an answer to my concern, that I posted?

I have seen many 487 and even some high 490s and I never checked who was using HPs, I know that MY service rifle and all the folks I know, Never shot HPs.

[rfc357]

You are in the minority. Top competitive shooters use hollowpoints. Go to Camp Perry and see what the national champions use.

You can shoot whatever you want. I have said all I will say.

[Wingwiper]

Quote:       Originally Posted by rfc357

You are in the minority. Top competitive shooters use hollowpoints. Go to Camp Perry and see what the national champions use. You can shoot whatever you want. I have said all I will say.

I am in the minority?? Are you sure about that or assuming? Been to Camp Perry and have shot competition for many years and have NEVER used HPs. Didn't say everyone didn't but I had a concern I had addressed and so far I have seen no attempt to answer it.

TOP COMPETITIVE Shooters? WHO are you defining as Top and in what Disciplin??? I have never witnessed what you are saying, even though I am not even arguing that, I am still concerned if the hole is Geometrially ABSOLUTE CENTER enough that you would want to gamble points at long yardage.

SO I guess the arguement is that Everyone, or some use HPs????

[rfc357]

Oh, well.......

Not worth arguing. Shoot what you want.

[Wingwiper]

Quote:       Originally Posted by rfc357

Oh, well....... Not worth arguing. Shoot what you want.

Wasn't arguing and you have made some comments and not answered the question.

You chose to make some assumptions about me and you even made some comments in my direction. I had only asked a question and you seem to answer with some real authority, so now I am asking about the authority and whether you can answer the question or not.

This website has people from just about every type of shooting you can think of and there are alot of things to learn here, but before I jump to a opinion, I want proof.

[irish murphy]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Wingwiper

IS THAT HOLE ALWAYS ABSOLUTELY CENTERED?????.

You get what you pay for.

[Wingwiper]

Quote:       Originally Posted by irish murphy

You get what you pay for.

What Hollow Point is hand selected to the point that Guarantee can be given??

After the experience and points lost with that Green Tip stuff, I can understand that NOTHING is guaranteed and you will take your chances. We are talking competition here and not hunting and I have been in Matches where at the end of a week of shooting, Our team won by 2 points on the Aggregate Score. That two points could have easily been lost with a bad projectile or a bad flight of a projectile. I have shot an un countable number of matches where the winner of the match won by a V or a X count. That would have changed with a bad projectile or flight.

Irish, when we shot Long Range we would not even shoot a bullet that had a scratch or a nick on the projectile. We single loaded and we did so by hand entering the projectile into the chamber and not allowing the bolt to do it. We wanted to be certain that we took every precaution necessary to ensure that the projectile was going to stay on course.
I can not help to think that a hollow point may be Super in short range, but I can visualize the hole as not being always ABSOLUTE CENTER and causing a drop in points at longer ranges. I would love to hear from someone who has shot Long Range Courses of Fire at 500 and 600 with HP and did so competing against FMJs for a real comparision.

Not arguing with anyone, just real curious why a HP could even begin to be compared to a FMJ, at long ranges.

[irish murphy]

Most people i know who shoot long range comp buy the best which is usually sierra match grade and then hand check every projectile.There is also lapua match grade projectiles.If you want quality you have to pay for it.I have shot a LOT of handgun silhouette with big bore pistols.I used sierra factory seconds in my XP100 for years and shot very good scores with them.Any misses where operator error not the projectiles.I think a lot of people will blame a projectile when sometimes its the nut behind the butt that has stuffed the shot.

[Wingwiper]

Quote:       Originally Posted by irish murphy

Most people i know who shoot long range comp buy the best which is usually sierra match grade and then hand check every projectile.There is also lapua match grade projectiles.If you want quality you have to pay for it.I have shot a LOT of handgun silhouette with big bore pistols.I used sierra factory seconds in my XP100 for years and shot very good scores with them.Any misses where operator error not the projectiles.I think a lot of people will blame a projectile when sometimes its the nut behind the butt that has stuffed the shot.

I am not that great of a pistol shooter and therefore could not debate you. What I will say is simply that the HP is probably adequate in pistol shooting, I was not referring to short range shooting and my question about the validity of using HPs is at 400, 500, 600 and beyond yard lines. In Matches where a V or X count can mean a Match Winner or 1st Place.
If that hole is NOT Absolute dead center and I am not even sure how you would be able to hand check it without some pretty precision tools to measure very minute distance variations and minute variances in weight at balance. These minute differences I would think would be extremely time consuming to be able to measure and yet would make a large scoring effect from unbalanced bullet travel to the target over a long range distance.
Anyone who has shot competition knows that if the hole cuts the edge of the line of the next highest score, you get the next highest value. You ONLY need to see that the paper of the scoring line has been broken to obtain that score value, measured in a very fraction of an inch. That little variance can mean the Match Winning difference. A Projectile off balance even the slightest little bit could miss that value over a long range distance by many many inches in difference. I have seen a Off Balance green Tip Core affect the strike of the projectile by over 6 feet at 400 meters.

[mym1a]

I wonder if the hollow point is also a way to control and obtain consistant weight,I know sierra match grade bullets are all with in 2 tenths of a grain

[mitch_mckee]

Quote:       Originally Posted by Wingwiper

I am not that great of a pistol shooter and therefore could not debate you. What I will say is simply that the HP is probably adequate in pistol shooting, I was not referring to short range shooting and my question about the validity of using HPs is at 400, 500, 600 and beyond yard lines. In Matches where a V or X count can mean a Match Winner or 1st Place. If that hole is NOT Absolute dead center and I am not even sure how you would be able to hand check it without some pretty precision tools to measure very minute distance variations and minute variances in weight at balance. These minute differences I would think would be extremely time consuming to be able to measure and yet would make a large scoring effect from unbalanced bullet travel to the target over a long range distance. Anyone who has shot competition knows that if the hole cuts the edge of the line of the next highest score, you get the next highest value. You ONLY need to see that the paper of the scoring line has been broken to obtain that score value, measured in a very fraction of an inch. That little variance can mean the Match Winning difference. A Projectile off balance even the slightest little bit could miss that value over a long range distance by many many inches in difference. I have seen a Off Balance green Tip Core affect the strike of the projectile by over 6 feet at 400 meters.

Sorry, I just got through researching everything I could find on the matter and, in .308 at least, it's the 168 grain grain hollow point boat tail. Yes, they are made like they are for better consitency that the M118.

The M118 173 grain FMJ Match went out of vogue at least 20 years ago.

Sniper Use of Open-Tip Ammunition

Just a question. You DO understand that these are far, far different from hollow point hunting ammo, right?

[irish murphy]

Even in my 303 HPBT shoot much better than FMJ or SPBT.We have a termite mound on our range which is just over 800m away.I can hit that pretty consistantly with the 174gn matchgrade taipan bulles.The SP dont work quite as well.The FMJ i tested a LONG time ago shot ok.The best groups i have shot with my old martini cadet 222 rimmedK were using sierra HPBT matchgrade pills.The even shot better than Nosler BTs.

[338RemUltraMag]

i am not sure which is more inherently accurate but what i do know is that sierra hollow-points are used almost EXCLUSIVELY in long range competition, that is not to say that if a bulletsmith like sierra made FMJ's hollow points would still be more accurate. But match grade bullets and production FMJ bullets are made completely different. FMJ bullets are made with copper cone filled from the bottom with lead... end of story. Match hollow point bullets are a jacket pre-molded out of 99.99% pure copper with almost no impurities, then the lead also 99.99% pure is poured through the hole in the jacket, a much slower process. the purity is absolutely essential becaause impuritys mean inconsistancy's. A fmj's base has exposed lead which may melt in the barrel making every bullet weigh slightly different, fmj's can have a runout of up to 3 grains. a match bullet has a runout of .2 grains. so to compre the two is like comparing apples to bowling balls. like i said the fmj's may be more accurate if they were made like the match hollow point bullets but i don't know of any bulletsmiths that make match grade fmj's...

[Wingwiper]

Mitch, Irish and 338

Now those are the answers I was hoping to get.

No! I have not shot a match in a few years now and still have plenty of LC 7.62mm left.
I know the experiences we all had with the Green Tip and the wobble we would get that would send the projectile into another zip code.
To answer the question, No! I guess I don't know what the Match HPs look like as compared to the hunting. I was picturing the typical HP design when I was making my posts. 338 gave a super explanation and I will now have to check out some of this ammo.
Very interesting replies and Thanks, cleared my view up. 338 spoke with the knowledge of the off balanced projectile and the dire effect it would have on a score.
I got the answers I was hoping for, Thanks

Quote:      

While sometimes described as a "hollow point," this is a mischaracterization in law of war terms. Generally a "hollow point" bullet is thought of in terms of its ability to expand on impact with soft tissue. Physical examination of the MatchKing "open tip" bullet reveals that its opening is extremely small in comparison to the aperture in comparable hollow point hunting bullets; for example, the 165-grain GameKing is a true hollow point boat tail bullet with an aperture substantially greater than the MatchKing, and skiving (serrations cut into the jacket) to insure expansion. In the MatchKing, the open tip is closed as much as possible to provide better aerodynamics, and contains no skiving. The lead core of the MatchKing bullet is entirely covered by the bullet jacket. While the GameKing bullet is designed to bring the ballistic advantages of a match bullet to long range hunting, the manufacturer expressly recommends against the use of the MatchKing for hunting game of any size because it does not have the expansion characteristics of a hunting bullet.

Mitch
I went to your provided link, I had always shot M118 and I still have several cans of it. I think the Sniper Teams may have shot the M852 cuz I can't think of a time I have ever come across it in a Compositite Or National Match. That is very interesting about the score improvements. Maybe I have shot it and just wasn't aware of it on account I would have thought HP was like hunting HP.
Very interesting indeed. Maybe I have shot the M852 and never realized it was referred to as HP.

[Mick]

When I brought this subject up it was talking specifically long range F class rifle shooting, up to 1200 yards, the standard rounds loaded by winchester specificaly for the NRAA and not available to anyone else are 155gr sierra matchking hp's loaded into 308.

As irish say's you get what you pay for, FMJ factories are less than half price of match grade HP's and aerodynamically inferior to HP's.

Since researching this I have found that a well made hp actually creates a 'cushion' of dead air around the projectile, reducing drag and the effects of cross winds. Whereas a fmj cuts the air creating drag along the entire length of the projectile and does not reduce the effect of cross wind.

For the same reason a boat tail is better than a flat tail, by reducing tubulence at the rear of the projectile reduces drag and helps it maintain a higher velocity for longer.

That's my conclusion anyway.

[irish murphy]

Give the match grade HP or HPBTs a go,the hollow point is usually a lot smaller on a matchgrade pill.I wouldnt bother using them for hunting,like has been said before they dont expand like a hunting grade pill.

[Farmer]

I have done a heap of research for this and use hollowa when i bench rest shoot.

The theory is the hole fills with air and makes its own perfect point, personally i have use hunting grade hollows and still shot better than with fmj.