Would you shoot? - Page 4

Marine1 · 04-17-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

Larry, It's a difficult question you're fielding here. In my time, and in my war, I'd have taken him out, permanently. No wounding shots, simple dead, and no questions asked. I happened to speak the lingo of my theater fluently, and doubt in that situation, if I'd have given him a break. That's how it was then, I don't know how they expect you to react, these days. I would have put a burst from his crotch to his ears, and maybe a second if he didn't go down immediately. It's the best answer I can give.

Right on target, Scotty; This is a different war, different set of political rules, media present, cameras rolling, political parties trying to get re-elected. News medias fighting for the best headline stories. No damn wonder many of our brother troops are losing their lives. In our day, war was war. You were in a combat situation! You were in a shooting combat kill zone. The enemy here does not wear uniforms. if a figure is "armed", running toward me from the enemy kill zone, he's potted meat, for the vultures.

sell33 · 04-17-2008, 05:33 PM

this has me thinking and i know i would prolly be scared sh*tless but i think my anger would have made my decision for me. i do have a temper at times and i think 19 dead would have set it off

LarryO1970 · 04-17-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marine1

Right on target, Scotty; This is a different war, different set of political rules, media present, cameras rolling, political parties trying to get re-elected. News medias fighting for the best headline stories. No damn wonder many of our brother troops are losing their lives. In our day, war was war. You were in a combat situation! You were in a shooting combat kill zone. The enemy here does not wear uniforms. if a figure is "armed", running toward me from the enemy kill zone, he's potted meat, for the vultures.

Variable ... there was no "media present, cameras rolling, political parties trying to get re-elected. News medias fighting for the best headline stories.

This is 1996, towards the end of the Klinton era.

Maybe I am personally naive... but this was NOT a combat situation, but a response to a terrorist act!

"If a figure is "armed", running toward me from the enemy kill zone, he's potted meat, for the vultures."

... who was he?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sell33

this has me thinking and i know i would prolly be scared sh*tless but i think my anger would have made my decision for me. i do have a temper at times and i think 19 dead would have set it off

... anger does not dictate rules of engagement...

Seabeescotty · 04-17-2008, 05:37 PM

Larry, I had a couple of drunk ARVN air force guys mess with me one night, while I had the corner bunker. It was holiday time, and they thought they'd get a rise outa me. I recognized the uniforms, and called it in. Five minutes later, they were headed for trouble of the stockade kind. They could have gotten shot, and I was a bit jumpy, but I paid attention, and made the right response. It was different than your stuation, nobody was dead, and they were in uniform, and unarmed. Every situation , in every war has it's similarities, and differences. It's hard to say, decisively, what you would do in a situation, unless you were ACTUALLY there!

Cyrano · 04-17-2008, 05:37 PM

Larry, you've said the guy was armed and running toward you. What you did not say was if the weapon was pointed at you, which in my opinion is a critical bit of info.

If he's pointing in my general direction, whether or not I knew how to say "HALT" in Arabic, I'd shoot. If he isn't, I'd aim at him and wait the second or two for intent to clarify with the slack on the trigger taken up.

So far in my life, I've never had to shoot at anyone. But over the years I've been attacked four times, on three continents, by yahoos with knives. Fortunately I had a defensive weapon of my own each time (once, a length of speedometer cable with the end wrapped in electrical tape, once a sabre, twice a walking stick) and when the bad guys made their move I dealt with them. But I was lucky enough to have a couple of seconds to evaluate intentions before having to act. That was just luck, though. You prepare your mental state in advance and hope it doesn't come down to having to use it in the event.

Bottom line: chances are I'd shoot. There aren't any friends on the far side if the muzzle.

stalebiscuit · 04-17-2008, 05:44 PM

id get super ready, he points it at me and its on....maybe fire a warning shot

LarryO1970 · 04-17-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stalebiscuit

id get super ready, he points it at me and its on....maybe fire a warning shot

... warning shots were not authorized... how do you communicate with someone who does not understand you, nor do you understand them?

bkcraun · 04-17-2008, 05:47 PM

Given the information you gave, if I have good cover, I fire a warning shot at his feet, if he kept coming, he dies.

Edit, just read your most recent post. If no warning shots are authorized (why not?) then I shoot to kill.

soonerborn · 04-17-2008, 05:48 PM

I cant say for sure what I would have done in that situation until I was placed in it, fortunately I never have been.

What I would like to think I would have done is a different matter. I would not have fired. I would hopefully realize that in the moment of the situation, given the conditions you stated, that my adrenaline would be pumping and I would want a piece of any dirtbag remotely connected to the attack. Knowing this I would hope that I would have the discipline not to fire until I though it was certain that the approaching person had malicious intent. I would have certainly had weapon in condition 1, trigger slack taken up, and him in my sight. I would hope that given that picture he would realize the immediate danger he was in. If he shouldered his weapon, with it aimed in the direction of anyone, I would fire.

I would not fire a warning shot, this isnt allowed.

Seabeescotty · 04-17-2008, 05:53 PM

Larry, I have to ask this question. Were you allowed to load and chamber? Or did they have your hands conveniently tied behind your back? When we went on bunker duty, we were told to load a mag, but do not chamber a round unless necessary. Stupid me, we were in a war zone, and it seemed like the right thing to do, so we always locked and cocked. And made damn sure the rifle was unloaded before leaving the bunker.

LarryO1970 · 04-17-2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seabeescotty

Larry, I have to ask this question. Were you allowed to load and chamber? Or did they have your hands conveniently tied behind your back? When we went on bunker duty, we were told to load a mag, but do not chamber a round unless necessary. Stupid me, we were in a war zone, and it seemed like the right thing to do, so we always locked and cocked. And made damn sure the rifle was unloaded before leaving the bunker.

Scotty... once the VBIED (car bomb) detonated, I grabbed my rifle and chambered, plain and simple. As I say, game on....

Seabeescotty · 04-17-2008, 05:59 PM

Well, you got a lot of responses from us Nam vets, and from the perspective of our mindset during our war. We had some pretty stupid ROE, even back then, but for the most part endured and came home. How did your experience turn out?

LarryO1970 · 04-17-2008, 06:01 PM

Does everyone want to know... or should I wait on a few more responses?

... so far, 95%+ say to shoot... 4+ say not to ...

Seabeescotty · 04-17-2008, 06:06 PM

I'm going to take a guess, that you held fire, and discovered he was a friendly on his way tohelp, and you were relieved that you didn't pull the trigger. You're levelheaded, and this scenario just fits you, so don't go and let me down!

Brother Bob · 04-17-2008, 06:13 PM

Aim your weapon at him and start yelling! Anyone pointing a weapon at me and yelling is going to get my attention, reguardless of language barriers. Put a couple shots at his feet and tell the "powers that be" that you missed. If he continues towards you, nail his azz! You gotta look out after your team and yourself. No one in the military has the authority to tell you to just sit on your azz and take fire without a response. We're not sending our troops over there to die, we're sending them over there to make the enemy die!

LarryO1970 · 04-17-2008, 06:14 PM

Brother... warning shots are not authorized... there is no excuse.

Coeloptera · 04-17-2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryO1970

... BUT, what if they were unresponsive and did not understand you ?

Bringing a weapon up, sighting in, and yelling anything is pretty universal for "Stop or I shoot." Most people on the planet know this.

If someone had a rifle on you and yelled "PLARG!" I'll bet most people would get the idea.

What else could you conceivably be saying?

You also have the advantage for a second. You've taken aim, you're not their target yet. If they do anything but stop or drastically slow down and let the muzzle droop or fall, you fire.

That's my opinion, anyway. Then again, while never having been in a firefight, the situations I have been in I've surprised myself with how calm I was, internally.

- Coeloptera

LarryO1970 · 04-17-2008, 07:00 PM

Okay... what I did ... was not to fire. The Saudi with the AK-47 never posed any imminent threat to me or any of my men. Never... did he raise his rifle and become an imminent or an aggressive threat.

Had he done so ... as I've already articulated... I'd already had the trigger half pulled. I would have killed that man to save my guys… and myself, plain and simple.

… other contributing factors were the noise, the smoke, the debris, the bodies, etc. … a very surreal environment.

I decided not to yell at him… as this would have been all he heard, most likely not understood. He would have turned towards me, along with, would have been his rifle. I was not ready to take that chance.

… had he raised his rifle towards anyone else… game over, I would have fired at the waist, on auto.

The surroundings and the previous killing of the men I was responsible to keep safe was a HUGE factor… but also, I knew that if I was wrong, I’d be hung. That bullet was my responsibility.

It is pretty curious how … when the situation presents itself… at least with me, that thought ran through your head of… “you’d better be right”.

That’s what happened.

Who was he? Well… he was a policeman.

Seabeescotty · 04-17-2008, 07:39 PM

What do I get for a prize? That was a good contest!!!

Earl Easter · 04-17-2008, 09:20 PM

If you could tell the difference between Iraq missiles which i believed were launched at you at that time, in Khobar, not the Arabs, i still believe the Arab would be pretty stupid running at someone especially with a AK-47....... I still would of fired a few warning shots at the Arab to watch his reaction. As i would have been in a secured bunker or barricaded area. If his reaction was not suitable sir he would get one, just one in the head. But i believe you may of knew him since we were not fighting Arabs It was Iraq that hit the military complex.
And if memory serves me correctly Washington had an agreement to help the Arabs security in petroleum since the 1950's.

04-17-2008, 05:37 PM	#64
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 3,984 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	Larry, I had a couple of drunk ARVN air force guys mess with me one night, while I had the corner bunker. It was holiday time, and they thought they'd get a rise outa me. I recognized the uniforms, and called it in. Five minutes later, they were headed for trouble of the stockade kind. They could have gotten shot, and I was a bit jumpy, but I paid attention, and made the right response. It was different than your stuation, nobody was dead, and they were in uniform, and unarmed. Every situation , in every war has it's similarities, and differences. It's hard to say, decisively, what you would do in a situation, unless you were ACTUALLY there! __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

04-17-2008, 05:53 PM	#70
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 3,984 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	Larry, I have to ask this question. Were you allowed to load and chamber? Or did they have your hands conveniently tied behind your back? When we went on bunker duty, we were told to load a mag, but do not chamber a round unless necessary. Stupid me, we were in a war zone, and it seemed like the right thing to do, so we always locked and cocked. And made damn sure the rifle was unloaded before leaving the bunker. __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

04-17-2008, 05:59 PM	#72
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 3,984 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	Well, you got a lot of responses from us Nam vets, and from the perspective of our mindset during our war. We had some pretty stupid ROE, even back then, but for the most part endured and came home. How did your experience turn out? __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

04-17-2008, 06:01 PM	#73
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,810	Does everyone want to know... or should I wait on a few more responses? ... so far, 95%+ say to shoot... 4+ say not to ... __________________ "Guess what?! I've got a fever, and the only prescription... is more cowbell!"

04-17-2008, 06:06 PM	#74
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 3,984 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	I'm going to take a guess, that you held fire, and discovered he was a friendly on his way tohelp, and you were relieved that you didn't pull the trigger. You're levelheaded, and this scenario just fits you, so don't go and let me down! __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

04-17-2008, 05:33 PM	#62
sell33 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,176	this has me thinking and i know i would prolly be scared sh*tless but i think my anger would have made my decision for me. i do have a temper at times and i think 19 dead would have set it off

04-17-2008, 05:37 PM	#65
Cyrano Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York Posts: 2,288	Larry, you've said the guy was armed and running toward you. What you did not say was if the weapon was pointed at you, which in my opinion is a critical bit of info. If he's pointing in my general direction, whether or not I knew how to say "HALT" in Arabic, I'd shoot. If he isn't, I'd aim at him and wait the second or two for intent to clarify with the slack on the trigger taken up. So far in my life, I've never had to shoot at anyone. But over the years I've been attacked four times, on three continents, by yahoos with knives. Fortunately I had a defensive weapon of my own each time (once, a length of speedometer cable with the end wrapped in electrical tape, once a sabre, twice a walking stick) and when the bad guys made their move I dealt with them. But I was lucky enough to have a couple of seconds to evaluate intentions before having to act. That was just luck, though. You prepare your mental state in advance and hope it doesn't come down to having to use it in the event. Bottom line: chances are I'd shoot. There aren't any friends on the far side if the muzzle.

04-17-2008, 05:44 PM	#66
stalebiscuit Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: atlanta, but much rather be in valdosta Posts: 1,560	id get super ready, he points it at me and its on....maybe fire a warning shot

04-17-2008, 05:47 PM	#68
bkcraun Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 17	Given the information you gave, if I have good cover, I fire a warning shot at his feet, if he kept coming, he dies. Edit, just read your most recent post. If no warning shots are authorized (why not?) then I shoot to kill.

04-17-2008, 05:48 PM	#69
soonerborn Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 320	I cant say for sure what I would have done in that situation until I was placed in it, fortunately I never have been. What I would like to think I would have done is a different matter. I would not have fired. I would hopefully realize that in the moment of the situation, given the conditions you stated, that my adrenaline would be pumping and I would want a piece of any dirtbag remotely connected to the attack. Knowing this I would hope that I would have the discipline not to fire until I though it was certain that the approaching person had malicious intent. I would have certainly had weapon in condition 1, trigger slack taken up, and him in my sight. I would hope that given that picture he would realize the immediate danger he was in. If he shouldered his weapon, with it aimed in the direction of anyone, I would fire. I would not fire a warning shot, this isnt allowed.

04-17-2008, 06:13 PM	#75
Brother Bob The Mayor Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Olive Branch, MS. Posts: 2,670 Blog Entries: 3	Aim your weapon at him and start yelling! Anyone pointing a weapon at me and yelling is going to get my attention, reguardless of language barriers. Put a couple shots at his feet and tell the "powers that be" that you missed. If he continues towards you, nail his azz! You gotta look out after your team and yourself. No one in the military has the authority to tell you to just sit on your azz and take fire without a response. We're not sending our troops over there to die, we're sending them over there to make the enemy die! __________________ The Most Expensive Commodity In This Country Is Ignorance! Last edited by Brother Bob; 04-17-2008 at 06:16 PM.

04-17-2008, 06:14 PM	#76
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,810	Brother... warning shots are not authorized... there is no excuse. __________________ "Guess what?! I've got a fever, and the only prescription... is more cowbell!"

04-17-2008, 07:00 PM	#78
LarryO1970 "Blazing Saddles" GOV Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Johnson Creek, WI Posts: 2,810	Okay... what I did ... was not to fire. The Saudi with the AK-47 never posed any imminent threat to me or any of my men. Never... did he raise his rifle and become an imminent or an aggressive threat. Had he done so ... as I've already articulated... I'd already had the trigger half pulled. I would have killed that man to save my guys… and myself, plain and simple. … other contributing factors were the noise, the smoke, the debris, the bodies, etc. … a very surreal environment. I decided not to yell at him… as this would have been all he heard, most likely not understood. He would have turned towards me, along with, would have been his rifle. I was not ready to take that chance. … had he raised his rifle towards anyone else… game over, I would have fired at the waist, on auto. The surroundings and the previous killing of the men I was responsible to keep safe was a HUGE factor… but also, I knew that if I was wrong, I’d be hung. That bullet was my responsibility. It is pretty curious how … when the situation presents itself… at least with me, that thought ran through your head of… “you’d better be right”. That’s what happened. Who was he? Well… he was a policeman.

04-17-2008, 07:39 PM	#79
Seabeescotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Jay, Oklahoma, God's country. Posts: 3,984 Images: 18 Blog Entries: 1	What do I get for a prize? That was a good contest!!! __________________ Adapt, improvise, overcome.-Gysgt Highway, Heartbreak Ridge

04-17-2008, 09:20 PM	#80
Earl Easter Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 659 Images: 20	If you could tell the difference between Iraq missiles which i believed were launched at you at that time, in Khobar, not the Arabs, i still believe the Arab would be pretty stupid running at someone especially with a AK-47....... I still would of fired a few warning shots at the Arab to watch his reaction. As i would have been in a secured bunker or barricaded area. If his reaction was not suitable sir he would get one, just one in the head. But i believe you may of knew him since we were not fighting Arabs It was Iraq that hit the military complex. And if memory serves me correctly Washington had an agreement to help the Arabs security in petroleum since the 1950's.